Jeliko ) wrote:
: Janos Szamosfalvi writes:

: > Well, sometimes it does make a difference, sometimes it doesn't.
: > For example,
: > 	A kutya la'tja az embert.
: > 	Az embert la'tja a kutya.
: > both mean the same thing and both would be translated as: The dog sees 
: > the man.

: Hmmm. Would it not be "The dog sees the man." and "The man is seen by the 
: dog"? Similar minor, but noticable difference.

It's a possible translation, but I think the difference is a lot bigger 
in English.    In any case, these sentences were printed in my 
undergraduate text. (which had many errors, BTW :-).   

But lets forget the context -- how would you translate each of these 
sentences if you are presented _only one_, and you're not in the middle 
of a linguistic debate about semantics?

In article >, DBrutus > wrote:
>
>I currently have a very non-political cousin (Dr.) over for a visit.
>She lives in Tirgu-Mures which was the center of much of the
>inter-ethnic strife in the early 90's. She confirmed that it was
>governmental buildings like the municipal and prefecture 
>buildings that were the source of the trouble not silly things 
>like department stores. Danubis, you are simply diverting the 
>discussion into minutiae that have no real bearing.

Well, take it easy, Decius; I just wanted to make sure I understand what
you mean by "public building".  Because I can see some difference
between "public" and "governmental" in countries where most building are
owned by the state or its subdivisions.  Here in the US I would tend to
see them as synonyms, but not over there.

I've heard for instance, that the UDMR's HQ in T.M. is in a "public
building" and I can imagine that they would have put up a Hungarian flag
as part of the March 15 celebration.  Could this have provoked the
Romanian "patriots"?  Frankly, the stories about the same event differ
sharply depending on the side of the teller.  I, naturally, give more
credence to the Hungarian side, you to the Romanian side.  It would help
a great deal if we could see some more convincing evidence than hearsay
from people who weren't even there.  How about some "incriminating" video?
With so many people out there, somebody surely must have had a camera or
something, even if it's not Los Angeles.

> What does
>reality hurt so much?

I can only guess what it hurts: perhaps Romanian pride?

Joe

Jeliko ) wrote:
: Janos Szamosfalvi writes:

: > : Hmmm. Would it not be "The dog sees the man." and "The man is seen by 
: the 
: > : dog"? Similar minor, but noticable difference.

: > It's a possible translation, but I think the difference is a lot bigger 
: > in English.    In any case, these sentences were printed in my 
: > undergraduate text. (which had many errors, BTW :-).   

: > But lets forget the context -- how would you translate each of these 
: > sentences if you are presented _only one_, and you're not in the middle 
: > of a linguistic debate about semantics?

: Into Sumerian? :-)

If you wish!!   ;-)    But you can choose an "easier" language. 

: Have a nice fourth, Jeliko

You too!

CLARY Olivier ) wrote:
: In article >  
(Janos Szamosfalvi) writes:
: >	A kutya la'tja az embert.
: >	Az embert la'tja a kutya.
: >both mean the same thing and both would be translated as: The dog sees 
: >the man.
: >[...]  There is a subtle difference
: >between the aforementioned sentences, but that's largely unrelevant.

: That is exactly what it is about: supposing a neutral sentence (no stress
: on the part before _la'tja_), first sentence is the more frequent situation
: of subject = theme, second sentence has the object as introduction (theme):
:   - you will say something about the man
:   - then you say it: the dog sees him
: How you say it depends on how you see it, on what you are or were primarily
: speaking about (the dog or the man), you do not choose randomly.

I think such little nuances carry no importance in relation to the basic 
meaning.   You cann get the same effect with intonation, etc.

: Order is not "free" more than it is in English, 

No.   Why do have "t" at the end of the object?   Because it's 
required in Hungarian; without it, sentences wouldn't make any 
sense, ar at least they would sound a bit weird. 

	A kutya la'tja az ember.
	A kutya ember la'tja.
	A kutya az ember la'tja.
	La'tja az ember kutya.
	La'tja a kutya ember.
	La'tja a kutya az ember.
	Az ember kutya la'tja.
	Az ember a kutya la'tja.
	Az ember la'tja a kutya.

I guess this is more than enough to show some broken Hungarian.

Szia Attila )

Ha felfedezed ezt akkor valaszolj legyszives (post to newsgroup SCM) mivel az 
e-mail serverem csere alatt van.  Valoszinuleg e-mail cimet is fogok cserelni.
Kosz.       Arpi

Miklos writes:

> >Hmmm. Would it not be "The dog sees the man." and "The man is seen by 
the 
> >dog"? Similar minor, but noticable difference.


>  Surely not. Neither the first version or the second one is in passive 
voice.
>  That's the archaic "la'ttatik" form. :-)

Well not exactly as the English used here.
Regards,Jeliko

In article >, DBrutus > wrote:
>
>Politics is the art of dealing with real people as well as
>well as ideological warfare. When you have a whole generation
>of seniors who *were around* when Hungary was colonial
>master and rightfully fear a return of foreign domination, 
>when you have had communist leaders whipping up the fear
>of Hungarian irredentism and renewed colonial administration
>of Transylvania,

Decius, Decius ...  You are getting caught up in your own rhetorics.
How could Hungarians practice "colonial" administration in their 
own country?

>... and ensure that people understand that the child
>*does* have different opinions of the father and that what the
>father did was wrong. An apology for those who unjustly died
>under colonial rule, an apology for those who died liberating
>Romania, an apology for all those irredentists who even today
>continue to demand the reconstitution of the empire. Is it so 
>much to ask?

For Hungarians it's not only too much to ask, but is brazen
impertinence.  That follows from the different version of history
they know.  With that in mind, I think the most you can expect from
Hungarians is that they will accept the de facto situation and won't
try to force a change in it.  But what they definitely won't do is to
accept the Romanian version of Transylvania's history.  So it's best
to just realize that and make the best out of that situation.

How is that from an "extremist Hungarian nationalist?"

Joe

Though none existed when I lived there in 1991, I recall that by 1993 when
I visited  that Budapest had some machines through which you could receive
cash advances on Visa and Mastercard.  If I'm correct, the machines was
somewhere very close to Vorosmarty Ter at the end of Vaci Utca.  I hope
I'm not mixing this info up with my trip to Vienna.

In article >  (J
anos Szamosfalvi) writes:
>Jeliko ) wrote:
[...]
>: > 	A kutya la'tja az embert.
>: > 	Az embert la'tja a kutya.
>: [...] "The dog sees the man." and "The man is seen by the dog"? [...]
>[...] I think the difference is a lot bigger in English. [...]
>But lets forget the context -- how would you translate each of these 
>sentences if you are presented _only one_, and you're not in the middle 
>of a linguistic debate about semantics?

I remember having done this many times in short translations into English
or French (often posts to this group): for the rather frequent Hungarian
pattern of an object at the beginning (introductively), followed by a long
development with circumstancials and perhaps a subordinate sentence
attached, then after having tried other ways, the easiness of using a
reversed (passive) pattern, with the object made into a subject, strikes
the translator like an illumination :-)

-- Olivier

In article > , 
writes:
>Homan Balint, a tortenesz volt a kultuszminiszter '36-ban?

[...]
Hóman Bálint a  Gömbös-kormány  minisztere lesz, es 1932-
43 között, kis megszakítással a kultusztárca élén áll. [..] 
 [..] A németbarát külpolitikai vonal 
követőjeként ismeretes. Németbarátságának - a "fasizmus
nélküli" németbarátságának - lényege: a német erő realitás,
az angolszászok túl messze élnek. Szerencsétlenségére ő is
ott feszeng a kormány ülésén, amikor Bárdossy a Szovjetúnió
elleni hadüzenetet elfogadtatja. [..] 1944-ben Horthy egyik
bizalmasa a kiugrási elökészületek idején. A Magyarországra
érkező vörös hadsereg magyar nyelvü lapjában úgy beszél róla
Andics Erzsébet, mint a reakciós magyar értelmiség megtes-
tesítőjéről, akit előszö kell a vádlottak padjára állítani. Ezt
megtudva, megindul nyugat felé. Szálasi uralmánmak "Parla-
mentjében" egyszer-egyszer részt vesz.
Népbírósági perében először halálra akarják ítélni, de mivel
az említett minisztertanácsi részvételen túl másban nem
találják háborús bünösnek, "csak" életfogytiglani fegyházra
ítélik. 1949-ig a pesti gyüjtőben tartották, a raboktól el-
lesett tolvajnyelv szókincsből szótárt is készített, mes-
terséget tanult. 1949-ben -a rendszerváltás idején - Vácra
viszik. Gyakran megverik, hidegvízzel locsolják, a pribékek
levizelik. A 130 kilóról 60-ra lefogyott cukorbajos ember
1951 júniusában meghal. Halálát csak a Rákosi-rendszer
első megingása után, 1953-ban hozzák nyilvánosságra, ak-
kori dátummal.

<Glatz Ferenc: Előszó a "Hóman-Szekfü"-höz.>

On 1 Jul 1995  wrote:

> How is that from an "extremist Hungarian nationalist?"
> Joe

Worrisome, for I suspect that you do not speak  for the majority of the
"extremist Hunharian..."
                                  |    |     |
                                 )_)  )_)   )__)
                                )___))____))____)\
                               )____)_____))_____)\\
                            _____|____|______|___\\\__
          m. cristian     ---\  Hic  et  ubique   /---------
                       ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In article > Steven C. Scheer,
 writes:
>Minden esetre en emlitettem
>eloszor a hexametereket (melyek valoban szinte lehetetlenek

Ez később ért ide hozzánk Svájcba, mint Miklós levele, amit tehát
én korábban olvastam.

>angolul, csak Longfellow probalkozott egyszer meg veluk),
>de maskulonben nem a hexameterekrol volt szo. Tehat
>amikor Te hexametereket kerestel (pl. az "Annabel Lee"
>cimu versben), akkor egy "wild goose chase"-re mentel,
>ahogy ezt angolul mondjuk. Persze ennek a Kocsis nevu
>illetonek nem kellett volna ugy rad "tamadni." (Beke,
>Kocsis pajtas . . . )

Elnézést, nem akartam sértő lenni, csak cukkolni akartam
Miklóst,  mert gimnáziumi alapokról van szó, olyanról mint
az:
(a-b)(a+b) = a^2 - b^2

Tamás