I mentioned before that "Serwus" was commonly used among older Poles,
and someone since has asked whether it's used in the former Habsburg-
controlled areas of Poland; well, it's very probable that this term
diffused out of Galicia (the Polish-speaking areas of the Habsburg
realm), but I originate in Wilno [Vilnius] in modern Lithuania, and
"Serwus" is commonly used there by Poles today, as well as in Warsaw
(where I've also lived). These cities were controlled by the Russians.
Modern Poland's overwhelmingly Roman Catholic character derives from
the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Prior to this time, although
the state supported the R.C. Church, the populace was quite mixed
between Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Judaism. It
would seem to me that the VERY Roman Catholic Habsburg Empire would
be the culprit in spreading Latin terms among the common folk.

        "Wegier, Polak, dwa bratanki
         Tak do szabli, jak do szklanki!"

        "Magyar es lengyel, ket jo barat
         s kozt poharral es karddal egyarant."

                        - Tomek Jankowski

In Hungary #313 N. Horvat wrote, "Is it 'szervusz' or 'szerbusz'?  I
have always heard it pronounced with a 'b'."

  That's very interesting.  I too have always heard it pronounced with a
'b'.  When I saw people on this list write it 'szervusz' I assumed they
were correct because just about anyone's Hungarian is better then mine.
And of course they are right.  I've heard the shortened form 'szevasz'
without the 'r'.  However I've never heard 'szebasz'.  Therefore it must
be 'szervusz' regardless of what my ear hears.

  During my second last trip to Hungary I discovered that I didn't speak
any of my languages correctly.  I was at a party when someone asked me
what part of Hungary I was from.  I told him that I was born in Vas
Megye.  He told me that that explains why my Hungarian sounded strange to
him.  In the last year someone else told me that people from Vas Megye
have an accent.  I never knew this before.  Is this the case?

  At the same party I met someone who had just finished studying at Oxford
and had a great Oxford accent.  I was impressed.  However it wasn't long
before he asked me where I was from.  He couldn't place my accent.  I
told him I was from Canada.  When I speak English in Canada I don't have
an accent.  But it's not the Queen's English.

  Later, at the same party, I met a woman who tought French in Hungary.  I
told her I was from Canada and that I could speak a little bit of
French.  Well it wasn't long before she informed me that I had Quebec accent.
(I lived and worked in Montreal for two years.)

  Three languages and three strike outs!  The least of my worries now is
that I speak Hunglish with other Hunglish speakers.

  C'est la vie, eh?


Joe Szalai                       Tel:519 885-1211, ex5544
User Services                    Net:
Dana Porter Library
University of Waterloo

In article > Robert
Hetzron > writes:
>To Komives @ al.: I am sorry, but your linguist friend was wrong. Here
>are the definitions (abbreviated) given in David Crystal's 'A dictionary
>of linguistics and phonetics': PIDGIN - a language with reduced grammar,
>lexicon (etc.) which is the native language of no one.  Pidgins are
>formed by two speech communities attempting to communicate, each
>successively approximating to the more obvious features of the other's
>language. Pidgins become CREOLised when they become the mother
>tongue of the community. The process of creolisation expands the
>structural and stylistic range of the pidginised language...

Thanks, for the expanded definition. I think it agrees perfectly with the
very simplified one given by my friend. People do not speak pidgin at home
because it is "native to no one". When it becomes "a mother tongue" it is
spoken at home by some group. Your expanded definition is more descriptive,
of course.

>not true of Hunglish. And, to repeat myself, Hunglish is ad hoc, it does
>not even have the potential to develop norms. It is definitely not a
>candidate for creolisation.

It seems to me that Hunglish could become the mother tongue of an isolated
group of Hungarians speaking in a dominant english-speaking area. Such
isolation is less and less likely today. However, what in my ignorant mind
seems to set Hunglish, Spanglish, etc. apart from pidgin and creole (according
to the above definitions) is that the combination of two vocabularies does
not seem to be imposed by the need for two different language groups to
communicate as much as by the need for members of the minority language
speaking group to integrate terms and concepts in their own conversations
that they have learned in the dominant language. For example, when I was in
Peace Corps in Guatemala, we volunteers always spoke English among ourselves,
but as the two years went on a pure English speaker would have understood
less and less of what we said. We had assimilated a large Spanish vocabulary
into our English even though we were fluent in both languages.

bob

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Eva Balogh
wrote:

>The word "szia - sziasztok" bothers me a great deal and I am still not
>...
>go back a long way and therefore the dictionary might be right that it has
>nothing to do with "see you."

On my trip to Munich last year, I heard someone in the street say 'szia'.
I don't know if they were Hungarian (I found several that trip) or
German, but it was pronounced as in Hungarian.  I don't mean to draw
any conclusions, but just to point the experience out.
 Paul Gelencser

All,

I THINK that I will finally take a trip to visit Hungary in June.  Though
I may only be there 2-3 weeks, as opposed to the 4 weeks I planed last year,
I hope to see as much as possible.

If any of you are or will be in Budapest about June 5 to June 25, and
wouldn't mind some company or to show a stranger around if you know
the place, please let me know.  The dates are not final since I haven't
decided yet if I want to skip the world famous Hungarian Festival in
New Brunswick, New Jersey on June 3.  If I attend it I will lose 4 days
in Hungary, but I'd hate to miss it!

Does anyone know about festivals or concerts happening in June?  Also,  I'm
seriously considering a few days in Erdely, possibly in Kolozsvar.  Anyone
who'll be there interested?

Also, does anyone know about train travel times to Erdely?  How about
the time to Debrecen, Tokaj, Sopron and Vienna?  And the cost?

I'm trying to estimate the cost per day, and I'm currently using $25/day.
Is that 'reasonable' for sightseeing?  I'm guessing $5/day for travel,
$5/day for food, and $15/day to do stuff (concerts tickets, museum entry,
night club entry with a few beers, though I'm only interested in 2-3 nights
in nightclubs, just to see what they're like).  Is this 'reasonable'?
I don't want to be cheap and not do things while I'm there, but I don't
expect to Five Star it either.  Can someone give typical prices for a
day of sightseeing, and the costs at some sites?

Food (something to keep me standing)=
Food (a nice typical restaurant meal at a local family place)=
entry at a few well known museums (can't think of examples now)=
                                                                =
                                                                =
monthly transit pass in Budapest (where do I get it?)=
price of a room outside of Budapest(I think I have a place in Bp)=
        I was told that you can always find a room for rent by
        visiting the local trian station (in or out of Bp.  Does
        anyone know if this is realistic?  A friend said he did
        this whenever he went to a new town by train - people
        would come up to you, or the ticket clerk at the station
        would refer you to someone who rents room - usually $5-$10
        per night.  can anyone say something about this?

I'm basically trying to understand if $500 for 3 weeks is reasonable,
plus more for gifts ofcourse.

I forgot this: cost of train ticket to Debrecen, Tokaj, Sopron and Vienna
and Erdely?

Thanks,

        Paul Gelencser

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Tomek Jankowski > wrote:
>
>        "Wegier, Polak, dwa bratanki
>         Tak do szabli, jak do szklanki!"
>
>        "Magyar es lengyel, ket jo barat
>         s kozt poharral es karddal egyarant."

Przepraszam Pane Tomku, ale ja to pamietam troche inaczej:

   "Polak, Wegier, dwa bratanki,
    I do szabli, i do szklanki!"

   "Lengyel, magyar, ket jo barat,
    Egyutt harcol, s issza borat."

Joe ("Jozek") Pannon

PS:  Sorry folks, but I couldn't resist this rare chance to use my rusty
Polish with an obvious friend of ours.

HUNGARY segitseg-felmeres


Hello!

I WOULD NEED _YOUR_ HELP!

I am a University of Toronto graduate student in history, who is
planning to write his thesis about the relationship between Jews and
Gentiles in Hungary between 1965 and 1995. I have done considerable
research by now, but seem to have a lot of trouble with locating
primary sources of the period, i.e. documents, statistical data, etc.
I would seriously appreciate if you could help me with the following:

a) Do you know any person who is of Jewish origin, and lived in and/or
   immigrated from Hungary during the period mentioned above?
   Could you help me get in touch with him/her?

   If you are such a person yourself, would you be willing to fill out
   a short _general_ questionnaire? Your name and the information
   provided would, of course, be protected.

b) Do you know of any document(s) or collection thereof related to the
   subject and available in Canada or the United States?

c) Can you recommend any secondary source (books, essays, articles,
   etc.) dealing with this subject?

d) If you are a non-Jew of Hungarian origin, and lived in and/or
   immigrated from Hungary during the period mentioned above, would you
   be willing to fill out a short _general_ questionnaire? Again, your
   privacy will be protected.


NOTE #1: I know that there is a great deal of information available
         regarding this issue up until 1948, most of which I am fairly
         familiar with; I am, however, dealing ONLY WITH THE 1965-1995
         PERIOD.

NOTE #2: However extreme your view might be, I will protect your
         privacy. I WOULD TRULY APPRECIATE, NEVERTHELESS, IF YOU SPARED
         ME FROM GENERAL HATE-MAIL.

NOTE #3: I am of Hungarian Jewish origin myself, bilingual in Hungarian
         and English. If you prefer using one language to the other in
         our correspondence, please indicate your choice.

Thanks for your time and patience. Take care

Robert

>>Robert Hetzron:  "...pidgins are impoverished languages, used by
>>different language communities as a compromise for communication..."

>Scott:  "...Perhaps another way of saying this without negativity is that
 pidgins are
>augmentations of languages to facilitate intercultural communication.  For
>those of us who prize international relations, this might be seen as an
>improvement, rather than a compromise...."


Strange I always thought pigeons were those things that ate grain from your
 hands, and
then in a mark of respect defecated from a great height on your head (provided
 of course
you were bald)

Then again maybe its the Doves, having revenge at having had such a bad press,
 at least
the Raven went out to search for a better life boldly going where no avian had
 gone before),
rather than coming home with an olive branch - I suppose the Raven must have go
t
 to the
Martini first......

Is this the difference between soc.alt.hungry  and soc.alt.madar

Micky

In article >,  (AND Books) writes:
> Peter I. Hidas ) wrote:
> : I believe the expression comes from "szervusz", that is from the Latin
> : word.    Szervusz eventually became szevasz, than szia., sziasztok.
> : Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
>
> I'll see you later... see ya later... see ya! = szia
> keep it simple
> later, ciao :)
> janos
>
>
  I think, "SZIA" comes from "SERVUS". The second theory is basically wrong,
because "SZIA" can used at beginning of meeting, not just at end. The latin
"SERVUS" is usable in same way, but the englis "SEE YOU" isn't.

Sziasztok:
                Endre
ps.:
I'm sorry for syntactical errors, but I can't speak english...