> >       A big problem that I find in dealing with forced assimilation in
> >Romania today is dealing with the Joe Pannons of the world.  What Hungary
> >did before 1919 was far worse than what Romania is doing today.  Yet,
> >Joe, et. al. strenuously defend it.
>
> I also object to the use of today's standard of human rights being applied
> retroactively to 19th century.  Hungary's treatment of her minorities
> should be compared to such treatment by other countries at that time,
> not now.  Just like Romania's treatment of her minorities should be
> compared with contemporary standards.

Although I might not agree with most HUngarians on the best way to mend
differences between the Romanians and Hungarians,I have to say that I
agree with Pannon on this one. You must judge actions by the standards of
the time. Remember,  while "Magyarization" was implemented in
Hungary, in America blacks could not even drink from the same drinking
fountain
as whites and women could not vote. Discrimination policies
similiar to these were common throughout the world. That of course
would not justify women not allowing men to vote today, nor would it be fair
if whites were forced to sit in the back of the bus. Revenge solves
nothing my friend. Were the Communists right when they  punished the sons
of  aristocrats by not allowing them to go to univerisities or
take part in society?

Furthemore and less important, Magyarization was not as
"horrid" as many claim, though
it was discrimination and a black spot on HUngary's past. If you read your
history books-ignoring those written by radicals on both side- you will
find that
Magyarization did not have an effect on the majority of Romanians
 and was quite inefficient. Also, Romanians were given equal rights under
law (which was not much to magyar and Romanian peasants alike) Though to
be fair, Magyarization did succeed in eradicating Romanian and
slovak influence in politics (there were
very few non-hungarians holding office or filling governmental jobs.) But
it was not much different than the policies of other countries towards
their own respective hapless minorities.
dini metro-roland

after reading alexanders letter-which oddly enough, was  posted after
Pannons reply, i must say that he did have a great many good
points.The hungarians do have to admit that their past actions were
wrong, and a mutual understanding must be made between the two nations
to stop this senseless "who is right" battle.
dini metro-roland

Thanks to Eva Balogh, Andras Kornai, Joe Pannon, and Louis Elteto for
their helpful comments on the poetic acrostics I posted.  It was
reassuring that I'd figured out all but the hard part (I'd never have got
that right).

Yes, Revay was Petroczy's wife, so she meant lord/husband.  Since he was
in exile after failure of the Thokoly rebellion, they had a long
correspondence but I don't believe that "desire" has the sense of "lust"
or rather "erotic" that Joe suggested, because their "poems" are actually
hymns to be sung to well-known melodies (his to a "complaint" hymn by
Balint Balassi and hers to a Czech-language hymn translated from German).

In view of that, does the following seem a reasonable interpretation of
the various possibilities?

Eva Balogh: ER consoles her complete? lord with a [his] wish?

Andras Kornai: ER consoles her lord/husband, who is full of desire.

Louis Elteto: ER makes happy her desiring lord/husband [by sending him
                this hymn]?  (I assume this is what you meant by
                viglastalja as a transitive?


Petroczy's hymn ends with this verse:

                Enekle egy Arva, kuldi o Tarsanak,
                Isten adgya, lassa szemelyet tarsanak,
                En is en Tarsomnak
                Versfok vegek, kinek kuldem, megmutatjak.


I'll be grateful for any and all response.

Norma Rudinsky

Odon Sandor is developing a major mailing list, which is to contain the
REGULAR mailing addresses of all members of US Congress, key people of US
Government and State Department., key Ambassadors, key officials at UN and
EU, key people at Ivy League Universities, Libraries, etc. If you can help
with either lists ar advise, please get in touch with him:

Odon Sandor, POB 750068, Forest Hills, NY 11375-0068

Thanks for your help: Bela Liptak

>From   Tue Oct 25 21:08:17 1994
Date: 25 Oct 1994 21:09:49 GMT
From:  (Information Manager)
Organization: TogetherNet
Reply-To: 
To: TogetherNet News Briefs
Subject: NGOs push for IMF, WB overhaul


Groups Push for Overhaul of IMF, World Bank Treatment
Compiled from wire reports by Barry McPhee, TogetherNet

UNITED NATIONS, Aug 24 (IPS) - Non-governmental groups insist that the social
costs of economic adjustment programmes in poor countries must be a key topic
at an upcoming world summit on poverty, according to a report from IPS's
Thalif Deen.

Amitava Mukherjee of Actionaid said Wednesday the World Summit for Social
Development to be held in Copenhagen next March should focus on the impact of
structural adjustment programmes (SAPs) designed by the World Bank and the
International Monetary Fund (IMF) for poor countries in debt.

The London-based charity accused the Bank, the Fund, and donor governments,
of pursuing policies that severely hurt Third World nations when loan debt
diverts and uses up financial and natural resources.

Mukherjee, who is representing the Indian branch of Actionaid at a
preparatory meeting for the summit here, stated that the IMF had forced India
to cut food and agricultural subsidies, reduce budgetary deficits, privatise
the public sector and open its economy to transnational corporations.  He
charged that the Bank and the IMF were promoting consumerism under the guise
of structural adjustment. ''India has mortgaged the future of the country for
the sake of five billion dollars from the two institutions,'' he said.

''The shops in India are full of colour television sets, washing machines and
air-conditioners -- and these are consumer products that cater only to 100
million of the 900 million people in the country,'' he declared.

The harshest attacks at the two-week meeting of the Summit's preparatory
committee have been directed at the World Bank and the IMF.

Jacques-Yves Costeau, the world famous oceanographer, criticised the concept
of the free market economy advocated by the World Bank and the IMF.  ''We
live at a moment of history when the world brandishes the free market flag.
Bravo,'' Costeau told delegates Tuesday.  But, he pointed out, the free
market, has brought ''a fabulously high standard of living to a small
percentage of the world's people.''  The free market is based on wild
competition, from school to grave, instead of peaceful stimulation, he said.
''By definition, the market economy has no morality.''

Unless a middle road is found between socialism and the free market -- the
goals of the social summit cannot be realistic, Costeau added.

Martin Khor of the Penang-based Third World Network charges that most of the
economic problems facing developing nations were caused by policies
instituted by international financial institutions. Khor argued that contrary
to the IMF view, structural adjustment did not solve the debt crisis but
created even more social and economic problems.

The World Bank and the IMF have been mainly responsible for the
macro-economic framework within which countries operate, especially in the
last two decades. The World Bank is moving as well into the realm of social
policy. ''They are dictating and changing the health, education and
environmental and social policies of developing countries,'' Khor added,
accusing them of "encroaching into U.N. territory.''

Mukherjee said Actionaid found that in India, government reduction in support
to agricultural inputs caused negative growth in food production during two
of the last three years.  Food prices distributed through the Public
Distribution System (PDS) increased 75 to 85 percent. The uptake of food
through the distribution system has fallen by 50 percent in the last three
years, he said.  ''And the poor who cannot buy food in the PDS, cannot access
food in the open market. Therefore 50 percent of the poor who accessed food
in the PDS are facing greater hunger than in 1991....Elimination of hunger
and creation of employment are the fundamental pre-requisites to empowerment
of people. They are the pre-conditions for social development,'' Mukherjee
said.

Actionaid has ''strongly urged'' that the summit's programme of action call
for the elimination of hunger by the year 2000.  The charity is also calling
for structural adjustment programmes to be tied to the reduction of hunger by
a set date. Actionaid says this would parallel the requirement to reduce
budget deficits, a condition the IMF usually imposes on all Third World
governments.

In article > Alexander Bossy, 
writes:
> What Hungary  did before 1919 was far worse than what Romania
> is doing today.

AFAIK, the Hungarian minority would  be very content with that
rights that the Roman minority had in Hungary before 1919.  ;) :) ;)

Tamas

Targy: Olcso Internet
From:  Szekely Tibor Vegyeszmernok NY


             Korvonalaiban egyetertek az ujsagirour allitasaival. Egy
nem regi hir a Nemziti Allami Radiobol: jelelegi technolgia mellett
nem lehet a hitelkartya informaciokat a cyber teren at biztonsagossan
transferalni.
  A targyban nagyon autentikus volt az Economist vaskos felmerese
( par honapos ). Az Economist valamejest optimista volt az Internet
kulonbozo mediak kozti versenyt megindito hatasarol.
  Az atlanti ocean ezen partjan az emrerek a Interneten felmerulo
erkolcsi problemakkal
vannak lefoglalva. Nevezetesen a vekony eggyensullyal az ember jogaval
a privat elethez valamint az explicit sexualis temak kozlese. A
legfelsobb
birossag megosztott.5:4 arany dont a legtobb nehez ugyben. A birosagot
figyelok most azon cidriznek hogy egy ket oreg biro Clinton alatt vagy
utan megy nyugdijba. Demokrata vagy elkovetkezo Republikanus(???)
elnok nevez
                    -e ki birot az lehet a merleg nyelve.


                                           UDVOZLETTEL:
                                                         SZEKELY TIBOR

My mother is selling some collectible letters and autographs of
artists, musicians (mostly classical), writers, and historical
figures who may be of interest to readers of this newsgroup.  (They
are being sold as part of a large auction later this month in Bethesda,
Maryland.)  For examples of some of the letters my mother is selling, and
how to get an auction catalog or send bids by mail or phone, see the
message titled "! Letters, autographs (arts, music, historical, lit.)"
in newsgroups:

       alt.collecting.autographs
or
       rec.antiques.marketplace

(The item of most interest to this newsgroup is a handwritten draft of a
telegram from LAJOS KOSSUTH.  The telegram is to Gustavus Hebbe, and says
simply, "Come immediately to New York.  Answer by telegraph."  It is
dated 1852.)

Randy Steer.

Dini wrote:

>Although I might not agree with most HUngarians on the best way to mend
>differences between the Romanians and Hungarians,I have to say that I
>agree with Pannon on this one. You must judge actions by the standards of
>the time. Remember,  while "Magyarization" was implemented in
>Hungary, in America blacks could not even drink from the same drinking
>fountain

Thanks, Dini, for your support, and I totally agree with your additional
comments.  I just would like to add that not only the US, but
contemporary France and England, from where the chief criticism came
regarding Austro-Hungarian minority policies, had nothing to show for
their own similar policies.  Remember, this was the time when they ruled
most of the Third World as colonial masters.

Joe Pannon

Politics

Megismetelt level, tekintve, hogy a temabeallitas nem volt jo,
mert nem volt vilagos a megadas modja

----------------------------------- eredeti hir -----------------------
> Temakor: Politika, magyar
Szerzo: Zsadanyi Pal, ujsagiro, a MUOSZ tagja

Nepszavazast MOST!

A MUNKASPART augusztus 20-an inditott akciot azert, hogy a NATO-ba valo
belepesrol MOST legyen nepszavazas, ne majd akkor, amikor mar mindent
letargyaltak az "illetekes hatalmi tenyezok"
(amibol kovetkezne a "rendszervaltas ota vegrehajtott legnagyobb kirekesztesi
kiserlet: a nep kirekesztese a NATO belepest erinto erdemi dontesbol"
- tovabbszove Gal Zoltan minap tett kijelenteset a kirekesztesekrol).

Szeptember 25-eig mar 103.622 alairas gyult ossze az alabbi szovegu nepi
kezdemenyezesu nepszavazasra:

Alkotmanyos jogunk alapjan egyetertunk, hogy az Orszagyules NEPSZAVAZAST
rendeljen el az alabbi kerdesben:
"Akarja-e On, hogy Magyarorszag a NATO tagja legyen?"


En, mint a Munkaspart tagja, ugy velem, hogy a NATO kapcsolat epitese miatt
maris komoly karokat szenvedett az orszag.

Az egyik a Kis-Jugoszlavia elleni embargo, ami elvileg ENSZ hatarozat,
gyakorlatilag NATO diktatum. Ebbol a Kormany bevallasa szerint
maris vagy 2 milliard USD karunk szarmazott.

Komoly veszely az AWACS repulogepek jarorozesenek az engedelyezese,
amibol csak a szerbek hideg vermerseklete miatt nem volt eddig meg komolyabb
bonyodalom szamunkra. Szerencsere azt is tudjak, hogy Magyarorszagon nem
minden politikai ero ugyanazt a kovet fujja, mint a jelenlegi felso katonai
vezetes.

A Munkaspart most is barati kapcsolatokat tart fenn Kis-Jugoszlaviaval,
amit a vajdasagi magyarsag sorsa szempontjabol bolcsebb magatartasformanak
tart, mint az esztelen embargo melletti ertelmetlen kiallast,
s ezzel konfrontacio kelteset.

A karok koze sorolhato, hogy a jelenlegi katonai vezetes, mikozben a tiszti kar
t
nyomorban tartja (lasd: a nyari kodulasi jelenetet Kiskoroson, akarmennyire
naiv esetrol van is szo), minden eszkozt NATO forrasokbol akar beszerezni, hogy
megfeleljunk a NATO szabvanyoknak. Ez egyertelmuen a mar egyebkent is
alaposan tonkretett, korabban kivalo minosegben dolgozo magyar hadiipart
fogja meg jobban a foldre kuldeni. Az kulonosen nevetseges, hogy meg a
katonaruhak varrasat se lehet magyar szabokra bizni. A csupa kulfoldi katonai
termek oriasi kiadast fog jelenteni mar az indulaskor, termeszetesen dollarban
es hitelben. Azutan jonne meg az evenkenti kotelezo vedelmi hozzajarulas,
amihez kepest az egyszeri nepszavazas koltsege fillereket jelent.

A jelenlegi nyilatkozathaboru a Nepszavazas indokait probalja furni, amikor
olyan nyilatkozatok olvashatok a Nepszabadsagban, (ami orszagos napilapkent
nem tartja erdemesnek a Munkaspart nepszavazasi kezdemenyezeserol irni,
mert naluk a hir nem szent, hanem - ugy latszik megint - politikai bizottsagi
hatarozat kerdese, vagy talan megis Nagy Sandornak van igaza, a kisebbik
kormanyzopart beepitett tagjainak szava szerint minosul megirandonak vagy
elhallgattatandonak), szoval, csak azt merik kijelenteni, hogy A JELENLEGI
HELYZETBEN nem tartjak celszerunek atomfegyverek es NATO csapatok
allomasoztatasat a volt keleti blokkbol belepo orszagokban. No comment.

A Munkaspart velemenye az, hogy a kornyezo orszagok szetszabdalodzasa
velunk szemben gyengitette a tamadokepes eroket. Ezert fenyegetettsegunk
merteke csak csokkent az utobbi 5 evben. Egy konfliktus esetere is eleg
nagy mozgasterunk van. A hadsereget azonban nem volna szabad olyan
mertekben leepitni, amilyen utemben a mai katonai vezetes ezt csinalja.

Magan jellegu kerdesem: Mit akartunk 1956-ban?
SEMLEGES MAGYAROSZAGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A SZER harsogott tole ejjel-nappal, nem beszelve az utcakrol.
Svajccal, Ausztriaval zsinorban egy blokkban lehetnenk.
Vajjon Ausztria megbanta?
A nagy SZU betartotta a ra vonatkozo szerzodeseket
a legmelegebb helyzetekben is, vagy nem?
Most az is szettoredezett. Hacsak a nyugat egy idetlen
politikaval megint ossze nem kovacsolja oket egy blokkba,
akkor az erdekellenteteik folytan velunk nem is ernek ra foglalkozni.
Hat akkor? Mar kevesbe Bokros a koltsegvetes?
(A szanalmas sikerpolitika megy, csak ki hiszi el?)