>
>Send a message to NBC!  DRINK PEPSI!!!
>

  You don't want to be caught in Atlanta by one of our 30,000 security
officers  and test positive for Pepsi in this Coca-Cola city.  ;)
-- 
S.J. Shealy
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Internet: 

In article >,  () wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> 
> > Let's spin this idea a bit out. If the tolerated had stood up en masse and
> > refused to maintain their silence while the banned were being repressed
> > wouldn't the entire system have collapsed? It's somewhat akin to the
> > passer by (or more accurately a crowd of passers by) seeing a mugging or a
> > drowning.
> 
> I read you, but I think I am willing to give to the "passer bys" the benefit
> of doubt in this case even though having seen that kind of attitude in the
> late '60s figured heavily in my fleeing Hungary.  I was repeatedly getting
> into trouble with the Party secretary (also the Personnel chief) of my 
....

You go on to explain your troubles but you really don't make any sort of 
statement why the tolerated deserve a suspension of moral judgment on their 
actions. If they simply didn't go out drinking with the rat or inviting him 
to parties and other social occasions and only dealing with him as was 
strictly necessary due to the requirements of work and desire to avoid 
persecution, this shunning would have had real personal consequences and it 
is likely that a certain number of marginal informers would have either never 
started or would have mended their ways. Certainly there would have been a 
greater moral understanding of the battle which might have helped in thwarting 
the communist comeback that so many E. European nations have had.

> > OTOH, if the great mass of society doesn't owe anything to those who were
> > banned, should those who really suffered get any preferential treatment fro
m
> > society in the form of disability pensions for their suffering? I mean
> > after all, the tolerated would owe them nothing so why should they pay?

> I agree that society ows them and as far as I know, the government does
> provide some extra pensions and benefits to the most serious victims of
> Communism, but the extra benefit is rather nominal, compared to their
> victimization.

If you can't make a moral case for the debt that society at large owes these 
people, there isn't any justification that will hold up for continued 
recompense for the damages they have suffered. I'm not surprised at all to 
hear that there are only minimal efforts made to help these unfortunate 
people who have been persecuted. If people would really examine what these 
people are owed as a debt of honor, or even a blood debt, the results would 
lead to a more just recompense for the pain they have endured.

> >> You can't change a system by leaving the old guard in their power
> >> positions.  It's not enough to change the people in the government
> >> only.  Yet mostly this is what happened in '90, but since '94 even that
> >> is not true.
> 
> > Too many pronouns here, spell this one out.
> 
> Sorry.  What I was referring to, of course, was the fact that the change in
> government personnel was only true for the first free elections, in '90.
> But, since the reform communists were voted back to power in '94, the
> change in personnel is no longer true even at the cabinet level.  Many of
> the government officials are the same now as they were before '90.
> Only the rhethorics and symbols changed.

So you would advocate an electoral spoils system as a moral measure? I'm not 
arguing against it, but I think that there has to be some sort of moral 
decision made that guards against the continuance of the immoral idea that 
"We're in power so now we put our boot on your throat". How do you achieve 
the positive aim of avoiding sabotage while not perpetuating this government 
by "foot on throat"?

Since Romania is likely to be undergoing in '96 what Hungary did in '90 what 
would you advise so we don't blow it like you did?

> > As Jesus taught us, morality and the word of God both are things that do
> > not just belong to one people. I think that a general discussion wouldn't
> > hurt.

> Just as long you stress morality transcending any specific religion,
> I'm afraid.

Unless someone wants to stoke up the fires of Baal or perhaps prepare the 
strangling cords of Kali I don't think that I'm going into sectarian waters 
that matter here.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Racz Stefan wrote:
 
> Koszonom Toth Laszlo kedves levelet.Ha jol ertettem,hogy a forumot
> olvashassam akovetkezot kell irjam:
>   Subs 
> Elore is koszonom
>               Istvan

 cimre kuldj egy e-mail barmilyen szoveggel es kesz!

-- 

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---

 (Maria Egorov) writes:

>READING PART I & PART II, IT IS EASY TO SEE WHY THE ROMANIANS &MOLDOVIANS 
>DO NOT LIKE THE GYPSIES TO BE CALLED ROMANI.

So what ?

>The Byzantines writers never reefers to the GYPSIES as ROMANI, nobody did.

Except for the Gypsies themselves, but that obviously doesn't cut much
ice with you.

>The name ROM, ROMY started to appear late at the beginning of the 20th. 
>Century.The name of ROM comes from the Gypsies word DOM(probably a 
>religious term). Now from DOM to ROMANI is a long way,and unacceptable to 
>the Romanians for obvious reasons.

Again, so what ?  The Romani people have just as much right to call 
themselves their preferred name, and ask others to do so, as the 
Romanian people do.   

>Albert Egorov.

That is Maria with a, ahem, beard :)   Any more members of your family
in the business of putting Germans and Hungarians right and proving that
Gypsies usurp their own name ? 

George Antony
PERSONAL OPINION ONLY














>

Hi All, does anyone go to the 58 International Camping Ralley in Alsoors???
I'm going with two friends from Portugal!
If you go there say something!
Any help would be apreciated.
It is the first time we are going to Hungary :( or better :-)



--
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Antonio Oliveira - Leic - Ist.
Tel. 0351 1 3159352
ISDN 0351 1 3110876
					
					
					root@[193.136.154.7]
              URL. http://camoes.rnl.ist.utl.pt/~aaso - Em construcao.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

T. Kocsis  > wrote:

>De az. Lasda magyar nyelvhez legkozelebb allo 8 bites szabvanyt
>(ISO-8859-1), amit peldaul a francia csoportban szepen hasz-
>nalnak is.

Ugy tudom a Windows code page nem egeszen azonos az ISO-8859-1
kiosztasaval, amit inkabb Unix gepeken hasznalnak az X/Motif font
szabvanyakent.  A magyar nyelv szamara a legjobb betukeszlet az un.
Latin-2 keszlet lenne, ami azt hiszem a Code Page 852-es.  Ha jol
emlekszem azonban, a Windows es a DOS Code Page 852-je nem azonos
betukiosztasu, megha mindkettonek MS is az atyja.

>helyzet, ha valaki ekezetesen ir, biztosan szamithat arra, hogy fog kap-
>ni egy-ket privat lecseszest.

Ahum!  Akar tolem is. ;-)

PJ

>Subject: Re: HUNGARY=MONGOLS 
>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 21:35:06 GMT 
>From:  (Plamen Malinov)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
>References: 1, 2
>
>Dear Hungarian readers,
>I want to give some more complete data (from 1980 - Enc. Britt.).
>The group of Uralo-Altaic languages is divided into:
>
>        * Uralic       - with  22,530,500 speakers
>        * Altaic        - with 102,859,000 speakers,
>        * Korean     - with  55,000,000 speakers,
>        * Japanese   - with 121,044,000 speakers.
>
>Regards: Plamen

Hi, Plamen!

   (1) To which group do belong these two:

        - (modern!) *Avar*
        - (Afghanistani) *Hasar*?

        *Avar* related to *Dargin, Lezgin, Lak, Kumyk*?

   (2) Does *Dolgan* belong to the Samoyedic group?

   (3)  What about Finn.-Ugr. *Cheremis, Ostyak, Vogul*?

thank you in advance,
george

PS: compare Radio Liberty (RFE/RL Inc.) announcements:

[cf. Turkish "azat" = liberation; "azatlamak" or "azadetmek" = to liberate, set
 free]

Azeri                   "Danyshyr Asadlyk Radiosu."
Tatar-Bashkir      "Monda Azatlyk Radiostansyese suyili."
Uzbek                 "Azadliq radiosidan qapiramiz."
Turkmen             "Qepleyer Azatlik radiosi."
Uighur                "Azatliq radiosidin so:zleymiz."
Kazakh                "Azattiq radiyosinan so:zlep turmiz."
Kirghiz                "Azattiq radiosunan so:zl:bu:z."

[spelling =/= 100%]

_________________.

In article >,
Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>>GO TO: ARE THE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Version 3)
>
>Go to Hell. Or English 101. Preferably both. But frankly my dear, I don't give

Oh, c'mon Maria. Even some French citoyens have Mongolian roots; they are
citoyens who have a blood line from the Huns that ravaged Gaul. So there. 
Mongolian roots are the coolest, a great ice-breaker! "Hi, I'm a Mongolian."

Gabor

Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>
>Teljesen igazad van Tamas, mindenki csinal hulyesegeket, en is.
>Csak en nem reklamozom oket ilyen hevvel :)

Azert a pofatlansagnak is van hatara!  Az ilyen megjegyzesek erosen
megkerdojelezik azt az allitasodat, hogy te sem helyesled az NPA elleni
besugast.  Ez az ugy nem azert tartozik ide, mert Peter elvesztette az
allasat, hanem azert a piszoksagert, ahogy azt elvesztette!  Ezek a
patkanyok nagyon is megerdemlik nevuk kozzetetelet, megha hivatalosan
nem is perelhetok.  Abbol, ahogy sunyin hallgatnak rola, nyilvan ok is
tudjak, hogy szemetseget csinaltak.  No de ahogy az ilyesmi lenni
szokott, elobb-utobb valaki, aki tud az ugyrol, elszolja magat.  Mar
pedig abban biztos vagyok, hogy egy kb. 5-6-tagu csoport tud errol, s az
akciot elore le is egyeztettek.  Valoszinunek tartom azt is, hogy
munkabeosztassal csinaltak; volt aki kinyomozta kiknek kell irni, s volt
aki megfogalmazta a feljelentest.  Az ilyen csoportokban elobb-utobb
ugyis osszekoccanasok lesznek, s a sertett fel majd bosszubol elkopi az
akcio reszleteit.

Egyebkent akkor, amikor megirtam a "Tippeljunk!" c. cikkemet Karesz
stilusanak azonositasara, nekem is elsonek Fencsik jutott eszembe anelkul,
hogy tudtam volna melyik cimrol hasznalta azt a c2.org nevtelenito
szervert.  Miutan NPA azt is felfedezte, utana biztos voltam.  Ugyanis 
"Karesz" gunyolodo cikkeinek stilusa "vintage Fencsik" volt!  Szinte egy
az egyben igy irt a HUNGARY listan is Pellioniszrol.  Meg kell adni, a
sunyinak igazi iroi venaja van, csak kar, hogy abban vitriol folyik.

Pannon J.

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Ez erdekes kerdes. En furcsanak tartom, hogy egy ilyen gyorsan
>fejlodo iparagban, mint szamitastechnika es programozas, kialakult
>ez az irracionalis ragaszkodas a 7 bites kommunikaciohoz, meg az
>ASCII-hez, ami az angolszasz nyelvet - es azt is hianyos betukesz-
>lettel -erolteti olyan nyelvekre, amelyek lenyegesen tobb betuvel
>rendelkeznek. Ezzel gyakorlatilag nyelvtanilag helytelen irasra keny-
>szeriti az embert.

Igen am, csak a problema ott van, hogy az ASCII kodkeszlet felso
felenek (127 felett) a betukre valo kiosztasa sem egyseges.  Ha egyszer
megegyeznenek abban, akkor ez nem lenne tobbe problema.  Aztan meg itt
vannak a kulonbozo klaviaturak; en pl. nem igen szeretek olyan billentyu
kombinaciokat hasznalni, mint Ctrl-Alt-o hogy kihozzam az o" betut, nem
is beszelve ha annak nagybetus valtozatarol van szo.  Akkor mar inkabb
beszereznek egy magyar rendszeru "key board"-ot, de itt az USA-ban
ilyeneket nem igen latni.

Pannon J.

In article > , 
writes:
>Igen am, csak a problema ott van, hogy az ASCII kodkeszlet felso
>felenek (127 felett) a betukre valo kiosztasa sem egyseges. 

De az. Lasda magyar nyelvhez legkozelebb allo 8 bites szabvanyt
(ISO-8859-1), amit peldaul a francia csoportban szepen hasz-
nalnak is.

>Ha egyszer megegyeznenek abban, akkor ez nem lenne tobbe
>problema. 

Szerinte nekunk kell ebben elsosorban megegyeznunk. Igaza-
ban persze jobb lenne egy ISO-magyar, de ha nincs lo...

>en pl. nem igen szeretek olyan billentyu
>kombinaciokat hasznalni, mint Ctrl-Alt-o hogy kihozzam az o" betut, nem
>is beszelve ha annak nagybetus valtozatarol van szo.  Akkor mar inkabb
>beszereznek egy magyar rendszeru "key board"-ot, de itt az USA-ban
>ilyeneket nem igen latni.

En nem gondolkodok azert ilyen messzire. Nagyon boldog lennek mar
akkor is, ha legalabb az olvasasig eljutna mindenki. Aki pedig tud vagy
kedve van irni ekezetesen, az nyugodtanirhat.  Egyenlore az a szomoru
helyzet, ha valaki ekezetesen ir, biztosan szamithat arra, hogy fog kap-
ni egy-ket privat lecseszest.

Tamas

In article > T. Kocsis, 
writes:
>She also posted her stuff to the French group.

...and to the German group as well.

Tamas

p.s: I don't go after her. I just netsurfing.

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>
>Interestingly, the Ms has been posting her :ARE THE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS?
>(Version 3) on other soc.culture.*** groups, at least on those groups in
>the Hungarian neighbourhood. She doesn't cross post them in a single
>sweep, so one group doesn't know about other groups. Not just the Italian
>group, but also in the Czech and Slovak group. God knows why she would
>post her trash there.
>

Or anywhere for that matter.
GK

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >Erdekes. mintha azt hallottam volna hogty a Magyar Radio a
| >Liberalis Medicezaroke, akik mast mint liberalis velemenyt
| >kicenzuraznak.. talan meg sincs diktatura?
| 
| De van, csak azert meg akadnak kis szigetek itt-ott.  Tudod, akarcsak a
| kis magyar sziget a nagy szlav tengerben. ;-)
| 
| PJ

Ej ej.. ezek meg a diktaturahoz semertenek... De ha ilyen
benak, hat miert is felunk toluk? 

Ui. kirugtak mar azt aki NPA-val a riportot  keszitette?
Hadd irjak ala meg egy paticiot!

Istvan

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >Mar megint ez az elftars kifejeze. Ez szerinted mit takar?
| >
| Az egy huron penduloket.
| 
| PJ


Hat az? A hasonszorueket? :)

Komolyan... ha kivogasotok van az antiszemita-zas, nacizas, 
keresztenykurzusozas ellen amikor az szeles korre vam
hasznalva (es gyakran helytelenul) akkor a liberalbolsizas, kadarjugendezes
elftarsazas, stb miert nem esik ugyanebbe a
kategoriaba. Engem peldaul tobbek kozott te  is
rengetegszer4 leelftarsaztal, annak ellenere hogy sokszor
eliteltem azt amit NPA val csinaltak, mind modszereben mind
celjaban, mind eszmejeben. Ezert lenne fontos hogy egy
kicsit pontosabban fogalmazz, vagy ne csodalkozz ha teged is
lenaciznak (hozzateszem hogy szerintem  hlytelenul).

Istvan

Istvan Szucs > wrote:

>Egyebkent nem tudom hogy ne,m lenne e ugyved aki ezt
>elvallalja anelkul hogy Nemenyinek elore kellene
>fizetnie.Kulonosen hoa ugy erzik hjogy jogseretes tortent
>amibol ok is penzt csinalhatnak maguknak is.

Kiveve, ha esetleg azzal ujjat huznanak az ADL-lel.
Amilyen gyorsan ezt az ugyet kezeltek, s amennyire meg a szakszervezet
is az orrat fogta tole, az ADL kozbenjarasa szerintem valoszinusitheto.
Marpedig aki egy kicsit is ismeri az amerikai belpolitikat az tudja,
hogy "when ADL talks, people listen."  Ha pedig eddig nem is avatkozott
az ugybe, az tuti, hogy egy per eseten ereztetne a befolyasat.

PJ

I've just run across a copy of Erdely es a Reszek Terkepe es Helysegnevtara,
a 1987 reprint (Szeged) of the Transylvanian portion of Lipszky's incredibly
detailed 1806 map of the entire Hungarian empire.  Does anybody know
if this book is still available in the US?  Also, do you know if there are 
other books that reprint other portions of that 1806 map, or even if the entire
map has been reprinted and is available?  What a treasure!

Thanks, 
Joe

on 22 Jul 1996 06:25:15 GMT
 () wrote:
, Mpflerr > wrote:
>>Az is lehet hogy NPA-nek "vaj volt a fejen" mas ugybol kifojolag
>>es ez a feljelentes utan rabeszeltek, hogy angolosan tavozzon.

>Meg az is lehet, hogy te egyszeruen rosszhiszemu vagy, s Nemenyirol,
>akinek cikkei nem tetszenek, mindent elhiszel, csak jot nem.
Igazad van, ez is lehet - - bar en mar regen megtanultam, hogy fontos
objektivnek lenni es probalom ezt gyakorolni. Nem mindig sikerul azonban.
Az hogy NPA cikkei engem felhaboritanak es hogy azt tartom hogy 
horpadt uvegen keresztul nezi az emberiseget es a vilagot - az egy privat
dolog.
Privat addig, amig senkinek sem okoz kart. 

>Egyebkent alig hiheto el rola, hogy mar ugyis vaj volt a fejen, amikor
>epp elotte kapott elismerest jo munkajaert.
Well, who knows? Az igazsag az, hogy mindenki spekulal es senki sem tud
semmi konkretat, ha csak te nem. Hiszen azt mondtad, hogy Neked megirta
NPA, hogy ki(k) voltak a feljelentok??

>Ha mar arrol van szo, mit hiszunk es mit nem, en inkabb elhiszem, hogy
>itt az ADL, vagy hasonlo szervezet kozbelepeserol lehet szo, mint ahogy
>annak idejen a CBS TV "60 Minutes" programmjat is megprobaltak
>cenzurazni a Solomon Morel portre ("The Commander") ugy kapcsan.  A CBS
>becsuletere legyen mondva, ott azt nem ertek el.  Kormanyburokrataknal
>ez sokkal konnyebben megy.
Gondolod, hogy az ADL ilyen kis halal is foglalkozik? Nem tudom elhinni.
Kulonben nem tudok semmit a Solomon Morel portre ("The Commander")-rol.
Egy-ket mondatban leirnad, hogy mirol volt szo - termeszetesen csak az
en cimemre? Elore is koszonom.

Meg kell hogy valljam Nektek, hogy az elmult 39 evben talan ha 10 levelet
irtam magyarul akkor sokat mondok. Rettenetes nehezemre esett elosszor,
furcsan neztek ki a leirott szavak. Bocsanat ha sok a hiba. 

Marina