>Joe writes:
>
>>It sure would be an interesting sight to see American GIs in Pecs on my
>>next visit there.  I am sure they would find a friendlier host there
>>than in some other countries they have been stationed in the past.

>
>Eva Balogh

Your eagerness to see American GIs in Pecs is a bit disappointing.  I'm
not
sure why Joe thinks that they will be better received in Hungary than
elsewhere in the world.  I suspect that once the good burgers of Pecs see
how many American GIs are black, old ideas of race and culture will no
doubt
surface.  If that happens, Hungary and Hungarians will be the loosers.  As
an Hungarian-Canadian I would be happy if the Americans stayed home.  They
are NOT the worlds police.

Joe Szalai

I am new to this group, but wanted to comment on this post listed above

Magyars in my opinion have had open arms to all, the hospitality is
without a doubt tops in the world.  Although we(Americans ) turned our
backs when they needed us most they have forgivern us for that, which I
must add takes some serious pride to do.  I do not mean this in anyway to
sound harsh although it does.  When will the war end? The U.N. has nothing
more than a peace keeping role, the U.N. is not being utilized as it
should be.  I wish our boys would stay home also, and you are correct, we
are not the worlds police, but when will the blood shed end???  Are we all
to wait and wait to see this go on day after day, while all of europe
watches next door?  Why can't they send thier boys during the Holy Days?
Everyone has a reason in this issue, Mr. Clinton has an election coming,
the republicans want to see this whole thing  blunder,  the GIs want to
help out, get out, and go home.  What happened to the major forces of
europe?  The european community?  Hungarians opening thier arms to the GIs
is not all bad, for what has happened next door to them is a painful
rememberance of thier own pasts, our own past as Hungarian-American, from
the time our tribes were formed, hungarians have fought hard to end
oppression,from the turks to the final end with students rallying one last
time on the streets in Buda and Pest.  So now they see it next door
although in different ways, but killing is killing, war is war, and
oppression
a brutal rememberance!
Eric G.

----- Forwarded Message
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 16:36:09 PST
X-To: ,
Newsgroups:
Cc:
From: "Jeliko" >,
Organization:
Subject: Re: Anti-Americanism
In-Reply-To: "7 Dec 1995 10:18:07 GMT"
        >
Reply-To: ,

Csaba Harangozo writes:


>       Well Mr. Stowewrite, it is the Western "powers" who did create
>       this mess in Europe  about 75 years ago by cutting up a country
>       and creating the artifical ones which are causing all the troubles
>       now.Remember Trianon ? Please look up some history sources.
If you look up the history sources you will find that the USA was not a
signatory to the Trianon treaty. The US has signed a separate treaty later
with the countries involved. It is not correct to talk about "western
pwers" en block in regard to their geopolitics in relation to Central
Europe. The involvement and their actions were quite different from one
another,



>       The same 'cutting up' is happening in Bosnia now and I bet it will
>       not solve any problem.It will only create more trouble down the
line
>       as before.So whose interest is this?

Please give single item that is in the interest of the USA in regard to
Bosnia, other than that the rest of NATO never could find its way out of a
paper bag without the US involvement. Perhaps it would be better if the US
in fact would become isolationist and let the Europeans fend for
themselves. In my opinion, if the rest of Europe is not willing to finanace
their own protection, I sure do not see why my taxes should be supporting
any current European "protection" activity. Pray tell me what was it that
Europe did since the falling apart of Yugoslavia? For the last two years I
was reading US bashing for not involving itself in the Balkans because
"there is no oil there", well did someone discover oil there now. Or it
does not make any difference some will always bash the US, generally the
same folks even if the US policy makes 180 degree turn.



>Well war is business.The
>       so-called Cold war is over ( or this is what the media tries to
>       make people to believe).The US needs some 'business' again.It has
>       a huge war machine which has to churn out products and sell it,
>       but where? Where is conflict. So where are the conflicts ?
>       Where you create them. Simple? Yes.You see,  the old rule :

The only contribution is from the US taxpayers. How in the hell can anyone
say that the US "created" this conflict.


>       'Divide and rule them' is still very valid. It is easy stir up
>       people in countries where there are different races/religious
>groups
>       due to the fact that these countries were created artificially
>       with these aims in mind from the start.

There are more races and certainly more religions in the US than in the
Balkans, so we do not have to go anywhere to solve those problems. Yes the
countries were artifically created but certainly not by the US.


>So you want other rich
>       countries take charge in Europe now?

You bet your sweet bippy, that is what should have happened, not only the
rich ones but all of them. I am willing to predict that the US will have to
not only supply troops, but also pay for the presence of many of the non-US
presence also.

>
>Well Germany could do it.
>       But the moment it would move in that direction the media ( leftist
>       as we all know them ) would be crying out loud all over that
>       nazism started again,blah,blah... So it is wiser if Germany not
>       intervene now.France ? Don't make me laugh.Britain ? Please not
>       them with their anti-continental behaviour, they are oh so 'above'

It is noble of you to find an excuse for everybody else for creating
another mess in Europe and waiting for the US to come in and solve it.
The mess is not worth a single drop of American blood, and nobody will say
thank you for pulling the chestnuts out of the fire.



>       the continental masses.Please correct me if I'm wrong but the US
>       would not go into this mess in Europe if it would not smell some
>       business.( Also some election is coming up, isn't it ?)
>       We should hope that there won't be a 'Vietnam' in Europe from this.
>       Well I could go on but I know you see it differently isn't it ?

Well, if you think this will help anybody to get elected in the US you are
mistaken, most of the American public does not even know where Bosnia is
and the last thing in their mind is to jump up and down from joy to have,
their children and loved ones die when most of the Europeans don't give a
hoot. Obviously you would have preferred to continue the slaughter and
still come up with some America bashing for - in that case- not helping
out.

Jeliko

>                               CSABA HARANGOZO
>                               

----- End of Forwarded Message

After reading Jeliko's well-reasoned response to Csaba's flame-bait, a
couple of thoughts struck me.

First of all, have you noticed how anti-American rhetoric is in inverse
proportion to the poster's likelihood of ever needing American troops to
haul his or her chestnuts out of the fire if the local geopolitical
neighborhood bully gets out of hand? I don't think it's coincidental that
some of the more knuckleheaded reactions on this group to America's
intervention in Bosnia have come from places like Britain and Australia.
Csaba fulminates against America and suggests I read up on Trianon
(translation: accept his version of Hungarian history at face value). But
he does so from the comfort and safety of a home in Australia. About 50
years ago, a lot of very young boys from the United States died miserable,
squalid deaths in places like the Coral Sea, New Guinea and Guadalcanal to
make it possible for Aussies like Csaba to live like they do today.

Americans learned a long, long time ago never to expect any thanks from
ingrates like Csaba. But things definitely could be worse for him. He
could be slave labor on a Mitsubishi intercontinental ballistic missile
assembly line right now, giving his all for the maintenance of the Greater
East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere and dodging drunken, murderous Kempeitai
on the way home each night.

Second, notice how the America haters aren't able to really quantify
what's so evil about America? As far as I can tell, our major crime
against humanity from these folks' perspective is making stars out of
Michael Jackson and Roseanne Barr/Arnold/Whatever and inflicting them on
other cultures. Now, admittedly, that's not the kind of thing one usually
does to people one considers friends. But is it really as evil as, say,
murdering several million people in death camps, like the Nazis? Or
emptying a city of every resident, forcing them to march into the
countryside and starve to death, like the Khmer Rouge? Or promoting a
cultural revolution through the slaughter of millions of peasants, like
the Red Chinese? Csaba and his anti-American buddies, to cop someone
else's phrase, apparently know the cost of everything and the value of
nothing, at least when it comes to human suffering.

I've been fortunate enough in recent years to listen firsthand to the
stories of survivors of some of this stuff -- a Polish Jew who survived
Auschwitz and an American who survived the Bataan Death March and four
years of captivity in Japan. I've also listened intently to Dr. Liptak's
recent account of the 1956 Revolution (sorry if you don't like that term,
but it's the most widespread one among most Westerners) in Hungary (Saved
every one of them, too, so my fifteen year-old son can read a first-hand
account of what happened). Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who himself died at the
hands of the Nazi insanity, said that the more we learn and the more we
understand, the less provisional excuse we have for avoiding the painful
process of confronting evil (Of course, he said it a lot more eloquently).
America haters like Csaba will be the first to indulge in some
self-adulation, seeing themselves as Bonhoeffer's heirs and battling the
biggest evil of them all. They're not. In fact, they're the last people on
earth who should try to provide any kind of public guidance on what's evil
on a geopolitical scale. They can't even see it staring back at them from
the mirror each morning as they're getting dressed.

Sam Stowe

Jeliko wrote:

: ...You bet your sweet bippy...

Hallelujah!  He's back!  How does the old spiritual go?

        The walls of Jeliko come tumblin' down...


Vale.


--Greg Grose

> Vale.

Rather,

Ave.

--Greg Grose

Sam Stowe wrote:

>Your line of anti-American bullshit's no more convincing than the one I
>was originally responding to. You don't have the first clue about why
>America is getting into Bosnia.You could, for instance, explain how
>intervention in Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected when 6 out
>of 10 Americans oppose the Bosnia mission.

Harangozo's post remindeds me of many Hungarians who lash out at anything
and everything because Hungary was dismembered by the Treaty of Trianon.
Csaba may not even be anti-American.  He's just using my original post as a
convenient way of re-introducing Trianon.  Whatever merit there might be in
using nationalism as a penis-extender is undone by the fact that it usually
leads to war in that part of the world.

As for Mr. Stowe, he has twice commented that he doesn't understand how
Americas mission to Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected.  I'll try
to explain it as simply as I can so that he can understand.  (Actually, it's
rather embarrassing when someone with his apparent talents is so clueless
when it comes to his own domestic politics.)

Let's fastforward to the fall of 1996.  Despite considerable odds and human
loss, the Americans in Bosnia succeeded in stabilizing the area and they are
all going home.  What American president would not take advantage of such a
situation with only weeks away from an election?  What are spin-doctors all
about?  It would appear that Mr. Stowe has never heard of Hill and Knowlton
(that's the name of the PR firm that stage managed the gulf war or am I
wrong?) or he just dosen't know the kind of work they do.

It's time for Sam Stowe to drop his disneyesque world view.

Joe Szalai

>
> As for Mr. Stowe, he has twice commented that he doesn't understand how
> Americas mission to Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected.  I'll try
> to explain it as simply as I can so that he can understand.  (Actually, it's
> rather embarrassing when someone with his apparent talents is so clueless
> when it comes to his own domestic politics.)
>
> Let's fastforward to the fall of 1996.  Despite considerable odds and human
> loss, the Americans in Bosnia succeeded in stabilizing the area and they are
> all going home.  What American president would not take advantage of such a
> situation with only weeks away from an election?  What are spin-doctors all
> about?  It would appear that Mr. Stowe has never heard of Hill and Knowlton
> (that's the name of the PR firm that stage managed the gulf war or am I
> wrong?) or he just dosen't know the kind of work they do.
>
> It's time for Sam Stowe to drop his disneyesque world view.
>
> Joe Szalai
>

Joe, do you really think Clinton can get that much mileage from a war no
one here seems to want to do anything about, in an age of home problems
first? I had not heard of Hill and Knowlton either. I know you mentioned
that Bush peaked early, but I think the invovlement is qualitatively
different. In Kuwait, we were winning when we fired weapons, in this
engagement we will succeed if we don't have to. Bored soldiers, no matter
how good they will look to significant others and parents when they come
home alive, will not be much fodder for Clinton spin doctors.

Thus, I am going to go down the road and head for Orlando, because I
don't see Clinton gaining fmuch from this. The mileage he has gotten from
other things, like the Japan trad issue lasted all of a week, and we all
know how long the AMErican public remembers things.

Szervusz

Darren

Darren Purcell wrote:

>Joe, do you really think Clinton can get that much mileage from a war no
>one here seems to want to do anything about, in an age of home problems
>first? I had not heard of Hill and Knowlton either. I know you mentioned
>that Bush peaked early, but I think the invovlement is qualitatively
>different. In Kuwait, we were winning when we fired weapons, in this
>engagement we will succeed if we don't have to. Bored soldiers, no matter
>how good they will look to significant others and parents when they come
>home alive, will not be much fodder for Clinton spin doctors.
>
>Thus, I am going to go down the road and head for Orlando, because I
>don't see Clinton gaining fmuch from this. The mileage he has gotten from
>other things, like the Japan trad issue lasted all of a week, and we all
>know how long the AMErican public remembers things.

Darren, you make some very good points.  Normally I'd agree with everything
you say.  It makes sense.  It's the way I view politics as well.
Unfortunately it's hard to know which political reality to respond to.

Now, before anyone asks what Disney, and, Hill and Knowlton, have to do with
Hungary, I'll try to explain.  In three words, nothing and everything.

Actually, in some ways, Hungarians have already experienced the Disney/Hill
and Knowlton effect.  The difference is that they experienced it courtesy of
the former 'communist' party.  All three organizations are/were in the
business of creating a virtual reality.  The representations of 'socialist
realism' are only different from the images of Disney, and, Hill and
Knowlton, in kind.  All three organizations parade(d) reflections of
perfect, utopian, irresistible worlds.  Who could refuse?  Who would want to?

Most readers of this list are familiar with Disney and the CP, so I wont
explain their place in society.  Hill and Knowlton, although unfamiliar to
you is like Disney.    Among other things, Hill and Knowlton are familiar
with orchestrating popular war hysteria.  If you think back to just before
the start of the gulf war, Kuwaiti citizens appeared before some government
body in the US to tell the world about the crimes committed by the Iraqies
against babies in incubators at a hospital in Kuwait city.  The world was
shocked at the brutality.  However, serious questions have been asked
regarding the legitimacy of the story.  The incident may not have happened
at all.  And the young Kuwaiti girl who told the story was no ordinary
citizen.  She was a member of the Kuwaiti royal family.  It was Hill and
Knowlton who presented her to the world.  Truth may not have been served but
their tactic worked.

Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not supporting that fool in Bagdad.  All I'm
saying is that it is very difficult to know what is real and what is not.
Clinton's Bosnian mission may be legitimate but wouldn't we all love to see
the complete agenda.

Joe Szalai

ps.  If Hill and Knowlton was not the PR agency that was involved with the
gulf war then I'll publicly apologize.

I wrote:
>Readers should know from documents and by fact established in Court,
>that Ivan Peto's father (Laszlo Peto [Richtmann]) was not at all a
>drafted GI, but served voluntarily as lieutenant-colonel (alezredes!)
>of the AVH (State Security Force).

>For the unlikely few who still would like to believe that Ivan Peto's
>father (born Laszlo Richtmann) was dragged as an "innocent thing"
>into AVH, headed by dreaded Gabor Peter (born Benjamin Eisenberger),
>it could be rather revealing that Ivan Peto's father volunteered after
>1956 to be Commander in the infamous "Workers' Militia".

Hidas answered:
>What point aare you making in mentioning the name of these persons before
>they magyarized their names? ... Are you hinting that you do not really
>>consider them Hungarian? Are you sending out some secret message on race,
>>nation, etc? ... his religion? Let us call a spade a spade.

My answer:
Oh, no. Again, I have to warn readers that this is a censored medium.
You don't call a spade a spade if the censor does not like it, lest
you are thrown out of some distinguished club. In fact, this is its
distinction:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    *** THIS LIST IS NOT WITHOUT OBJECTION BY HUNGARIANS ***
THIS "HUNGARY" LIST, BY USURPING THE NAME OF A SOVEREIGN DEMOCRATIC
COUNTRY, PRETENDS TO BE INCLUSIVE, OPEN TO ALL. BUT CONTRARY TO ITS
FALSE REPRESENTATION, IT IS ON RECORD OF USING UNILATERAL CENSORSHIP.
PERMITS DEFAMATION (DENIAL) OF HUNGARIAN FREEDOM FIGTHERS OF 1956
("szabadsagharc elmaradt") WHILE HUNGARIAN ANTIDEFAMATION FIGHT IS
ON RECORD OF BEING UNILATERALLY CENSORED.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me rather talk about a basked of apples. Presumably, apples are
O.K. with the censor.

There was a nice basket of apples. Except, that in the extreme bottom
of it some few rotten ones started to stink. "Look at those rotten
apples - an innocent bystander said - why don't you throw them out!?"

"Hey, watch what you say! We do not tolerate here antiapple hate speech!"
So said the stern apple police. "If those apples are rotten, you cannot
call them apples! You can't even point out that both or, allegedly, one
of the ancestors of the rotten fruit was an apple! Not even if some used
to go under the rather explicit name of 'Apfel'"  And the apple-police
threw out... well, not the rotten apples, but the man who pointed them
out!

I cannot be but sorry for both the apple-basket and its apple-police.
Not even apples can have it both ways. Either you apples learn to notice
that rotten fruit happens, even among the best kind, and make sure that
your rotten ones you contain by "cordon sanitaire". Or, keep an
applepolice, who watches for rotten apples, and throws them out himself.

But, for heaven's sake, *stop* making a fool of both yourselves and
healthy apples by pretending that it is an "innocent thing" to be
rotten and stink!  And  well, if finally you *do* notice the rotten
appples, do *NOT* throw out those who help to point them out. Thank
them! Even if it hurts. Will not nearly hurt as much as watching your
whole apple-basket go to hell.

Because, and this is your saddest choice, you can opt to ignore *YOUR*
problem. You can throw out those who point out the rotten extreme-
bottom of your basket. But, you will watch with your very eyes that
your basket of apples will be spoiled and gone. And healthy fruit
will not touch the stinking problem with a ten feet pole.

GREETINGS, I thought that some people on the list might be interested to know
that a new museum has just opened in what was the house of Miksa Roth, the
stained glass artist who died in Budapest in 1944. The address is Nefelejcs u.
26. 1078 Budapest. The curator is Dr. Ferenc Kesztyus, and the phone # is
1-416-789. Miksa Roth did work similar to Tiffany.  His stauned glass windows
are in the Hungarian Parliament, the Music Academy, and about 100 other
public buildings and churches. I recently visited the museum and was impressed
by the restoration of the house and the display of stained glass and mosaics.
I must admit that I am biased because Miksa Roth was my grandmother's brother.
I would be interested in hearing from anyone who visits the museum, or who
is familiar with the Roth family or the family of Miksa Roth's wife, Josephine
Walla. Bob Stern

Greetings again, In my last post about the stained glass maker Miksa Roth,
I mentioned at the end that I would like to hear from anyone who knew the Roth
family.  I am also trying to learn more about the Hungarian roots of the STERN
family. I believe that my grandfather, JAKAB STERN, was born in VECS in 1854.
He was Jewish, but the Family History Center in the Mormon Church has no
Jewish records from VECS. Does anyone know anything about the town of VECS?
I think it is near Eger.  I would greatly appreciate it if anyone has any
thoughts as to where I might find a birth record of my grandfather. And does
anyone know of a Hungarian genealogy list to which I might post this?
Many thanks,  Bob Stern