Well, once again the list has proved its value in eliciting new and im-
portant information about relevant matters, most recently from Joe Sza-
lai regarding the status of Quebec within and without Canada.  I'm no
longer so sure that the comparison with the Basque territory holds up.
True, that territory and Catalonia do enjoy regional autonomy, and that
does seem to be related to ethnicity.  But there are many other autono-
mous regions in Spain, such as Andalusia, without a distictive ethnic
base.  The key seems to be *regional*, not ethnic, autonomy, and that,
despite Joe's knowledgeable factual reviews, seems to be the case with
Quebec, too.
        With regard to the U.K., I had in mind Northern Ireland, before
the "Troubles," with its own parliament at Stormont.  But Scotland en-
joys its own legal system as well as some other elements of what has been
called "devolution".  Even in these cases, however, it is Scotland and
Northern Ireland as territories that enjoy or enjoyed regional autonomy,
not the Scots or the (Catholic) Irish as ethenes.
        If therefore we are speaking about *territorial* autonomy for
all the inhabitants of Transylvania, fine.  But I think we all know that
we are speaking of ethnic group autonomy for the Hungarians in Transyl-
vania, another matter entirely.  So let's grant Joe's point--Canada is
a civilized country, and Quebecois enjoy ethnic autonomy.  That still
leaves them the only ones in the civilized world.

Udv.,
Be'la

Can anyone help a Software Engineer find work in Hungary?
Please E-Mail me at :

Goodness me, I agree! (must be near christmas...)


>
> Hooray for Joe Szalai's "call to arms" against the hate mongers!  Let us
> go now and do!
>
> Udv.,
> Be'la

Stowewrite ) wrote:
: Your line of anti-American bullshit's no more convincing than the one I
: was originally responding to. You don't have the first clue about why
: America is getting into Bosnia.You could, for instance, explain how
: intervention in Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected when 6 out
: of 10 Americans oppose the Bosnia mission.

:  What puzzles me is your obvious enthusiasm for parading your ignorance in
: front of a worldwide audience. If I could offer you some advice, it would
: be Abraham Lincoln's recommendation that it's better to keep one's mouth
: shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

: G'day, mate.


: Sam Stowe

        Sure Sam.I know truth hurts, that is why people don't like it.
                So when someone says it, there are always people who'll
                try to deny it.Anyway , I might be ignorant but this should
                not discourage me ( or anyone else ) to post here, "front of
                a worldwide audience". That is why we have this wonderful
                Net, so everyone can put in his 2c worth of advice/opinion
                or comment, whatever. You still did not answer properly to
                my comment, apart from disparage it.So why the US is getting
                into Bosnia?Please enlighten us.Just mention that I was
                born in Eastern Europe and 'escaped' to the 'free' world
                only 10 years ago.I was raised in Europe and I can tell
                you that so far the american idealistic solutions did not
                do any good there.Please correct me but I've heard that
                Clinton only sanctioned one year of 'peacekeeping' in
                Europe.Why is that so ? What will happen after 1 year ?
                Same thing as in Somalia? I am not anti-american but I know
                the circumstances in ex-Yugoslavia and don't want to see
                another Vietnam.You see the world is changing in ever
                quickening pace and the old order could not be sustained
                for long.Information, like this net, is the key for the
                next millenium.We are building a structure, yes you and me,
                right now, as you reading this.To finish my post please
                Sam, tell me why a country, like the US has to intervene
                in a land which is kind of foreign and far away ? Are you
                getting some special, secret information from your gov. so
                you are sure that I'm mistaken. Thanks, Sam

                                        Regards,
                                                CSABA HARANGOZO
                                                

Joe Szalai ) wrote:
: Sam Stowe wrote:

: >Your line of anti-American bullshit's no more convincing than the one I
: >was originally responding to. You don't have the first clue about why
: >America is getting into Bosnia.You could, for instance, explain how
: >intervention in Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected when 6 out
: >of 10 Americans oppose the Bosnia mission.

: Harangozo's post remindeds me of many Hungarians who lash out at anything
: and everything because Hungary was dismembered by the Treaty of Trianon.
: Csaba may not even be anti-American.  He's just using my original post as a
: convenient way of re-introducing Trianon.  Whatever merit there might be in
: using nationalism as a penis-extender is undone by the fact that it usually
: leads to war in that part of the world.

: As for Mr. Stowe, he has twice commented that he doesn't understand how
: Americas mission to Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected.  I'll try
: to explain it as simply as I can so that he can understand.  (Actually, it's
: rather embarrassing when someone with his apparent talents is so clueless
: when it comes to his own domestic politics.)

: Let's fastforward to the fall of 1996.  Despite considerable odds and human
: loss, the Americans in Bosnia succeeded in stabilizing the area and they are
: all going home.  What American president would not take advantage of such a
: situation with only weeks away from an election?  What are spin-doctors all
: about?  It would appear that Mr. Stowe has never heard of Hill and Knowlton
: (that's the name of the PR firm that stage managed the gulf war or am I
: wrong?) or he just dosen't know the kind of work they do.

: It's time for Sam Stowe to drop his disneyesque world view.

: Joe Szalai

        Thanks , Joe. I do not view myself as a rabid nationalist or
                someone who needs some 'extension'. :-)
                What is sad though that the media did a very good job
                obscuring ( and curing ) some facts in the last 50 or
                even 70-80 years. I am just trying to rekindle some
                history which puts things into a bit realistic picture.
                I am too young to pine much about Trianon now, but sure it
                was unjust, anyone can see it. I do not hanker for the lost
                areas, national borders do not mean much nowadays.
                What is also saddening that people like Mr. Stowe do
                anything to bring down anyone whose opinion is a bit
                different from the view of his.I've just seen a map about
                the Bosnian area with 'land corridors' and such.In my
                opinion the current 'solutions' just the seeds for  future
                conflicts.It is people who has to change, not borders.
                But this is the festive season so I wish a
                        Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
                to all those people who read this, involving Sam as well.
                I will be on holidays for a while so I won't be reading
                any answer to this till the end of January.
                                Take care
                                                Csaba Harangozo
                                                

Bela Batkay wrote:

>So let's grant Joe's point--Canada is
>a civilized country, and Quebecois enjoy ethnic autonomy.  That still
>leaves them the only ones in the civilized world.

Thanks, but that fact still dosen't make most Canadians very happy.  It
seems that most Canadians would respect a democratic decision by the
majority of the Quebecois to be a new North American nation, which seems
only to be a matter of 'when' and not 'if'.  Still, most Canadians,
including myself, would wish them to stay within Canada.  But alas, the
decision will not be ours to make.

I know our histories are quite different but I often wonder if the Magyars
in Transylvania will follow, or would be allowed to follow, the Quebec
example.  Would it be desirable?

Udv.,

Joe Szalai

Dear Joe,

The Roma want to be accepted and respected as human beings and be left alone.
That is all they want and the Hungarians are very good at doing just that.
Please do not misunderstand. I do not mean to say that  there is no prejudice
against the Roma people in Hungary. No, there is intense prejudice, sometimes
bordering on hatret. Yet I am sure that if the Roma people can be
"assimilated" (I use this word simply to mean: "feel at home" or "feel
comfortable") anywhere, it is Hungary. Right now the situation is made worst
by the presence of a large number of illegals from Romania and Ukraine, who,
in the minds of people, who do not know the difference or do not care, give a
very bad name to the decent and hard working Hungarian Gypsies. Still, I am
convinced that in a few centuries they will follow the Kuns.

I know this from personal experience. My Slovak carpenter family came from
Lipto County 250 years ago to Bekescsaba. Nobody told them to assimilate, or
to change, they were left alone. They built their Slovak church, sent the
kids to Slovak schools and worked very hard. Even today, our family Bible is
still in Slovak (I am sad that I can not read it), Hungarian words start to
show up on the pages covered by handwritten Slovak notes only at around the
turn of the century. My grandfather used to hum Slovak folk tunes while
shaving,  the elementary and highschool(!) in Bekescsaba still teach in
Slovak. Yet, the "tot atyafiak" (Slovak residents) of Bekescsaba are the most
patriotic Hungarians you will find anywhere. They gave more volunteers to
Kossuth in 1848 than the next Hungarian town: Gyula. Both towns accepted the
other, neither had a desire to dominate or change the other,  just as the
Swiss have no desire to change their fellow countryman. The only competition
between Csaba and Gyula was in the quality of their sausage, and they both
did pretty well. These hyphenated and loyal Hungarians are still very proud
of their Slovak heritage. (One reason I am so mad at Meciar is because he
makes the nation of my honorable and decent ancestors to look to the world as
brutal neanderthals, which they are not.)

Sorry for the long answer. I guess the Hungarian model is closer to the
Canadian, except that it is not based on any "government policy", it
completely spontaneous and non-bureaucratic, it is routed in the Hungarian
tradition of hospitality and respect for strangers. It is a result of how
Hungarians are, they have absolutely no desire to change anybody.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

and leave for Kentucky Monday, without any email access for 3 weeks. The
beauty of this, is that if anyone here wants to respond to this, they
have to wait until january 9th, 1996

Dr. Dr. Kristyan, in reply to the letter From Constatin, starts bringin
up the fact that Transylvania is not the property of romania, oops, I
mena shold not be Romanian. Well, as the Un-Hungairan-America on the
list, three words...Get OVER IT!

All realities are socially created and social includes politics. The
reality today is that Romanians are dominant, and given census figurs
from both sides, I am nto sure there wasn't a strong plurality at the
time in favor of Romanian (we all know how census done by either side
tend to underestimate ;-).

The point is, they have to learn to get along no matter whose state it
is, and more to the point, when are we ever going to get over the idea
that any group has a pregiven right to any space on this planet?

Ok, not pregiven, but squatters right do not apply here. It does not
matter what happened 70 years ago, we have to deal with the problems it
created today!!!!!!!! Thus, if Dr. Kristyan wants to continue to bring up
Trianon every time, I am sympathetic, but that line of thought gets in
the way of solving problems today.

Well, with that off the chest, I am off to turn in grades, find some Egri
bikaver for my party tonight, and contemplate the meaning of marriage now
that I have some time to think about the fact I am getting married. My
best to everyone on the list for a Happy Holiday no matter what holiday
you are celebrating this season, and that everyone be safe wherever they
travel (through real space or cyberspace)

See you in afew weeks, setting no mail.

Szervusztok,
Darren Purcell

Eva Durant:

>Yes, but when those church properties were built,
>all the people belonged to that church and their money
>and their hands built it.

So, according to you, all church property was built in this manner! First of
all, even if it were so (and it isn't) these people "donated" their time and
money to the church and thus the new building became the church's property,
not that of the community. But most church property was not built solely by
the generosity of its members. The church paid for the material, the
stonemasons, the carpenters, the artists who decorated the interior, and so
on and so forth. It would be hard to argue that let's say the Cistercian
Boys' High School in my hometown in Pecs belongs to the city of Pecs because
the people of Pecs "built" it.

Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,

You might want to  make a hard copy of this letter to keep the data in it for
your reference:

A) EUROPE
A1) Our letter-writing campaign in the past concentrated on the EC chief
negotiator: 
      Now Dr. Jozsef Horti from Brussels also provided the address of Max van
der Stoel, the EC Commissioner for Minorities: 
 fax: 011-31-70-363-59-10. I will visit him in February and in the meanwhile,
it would be good if he received a lot of specific facts and information
through your letters.
       I understand, that the addresses of the European institutions are
available the: httw://www.cec.lu/en/comm/opoce/b2.html cimen. It would be a
great service to HL, if somebody collected and published the addresses which
are of interest to us.

A2) If your letters touch upon the subject of NATO, you might consider using
Jeff Goldberg's argument: "If Russia IS NOT a threat, then it matters little
if She is annoyed. If She IS a threat, then that in itself is a reason to
expand NATO. Therefore freedom, democracy and security will all benefit by
expanding NATO to include those countries which respect democratic principles
and human rights, since they are natural allies."
(This does not mean that I changed my mind about the Danubean Confederation
or neutrality, it just means, that I like logical minds, and Jeff's is
certainly that.)

B) ROMANIA

B1) Today the representatives of the Hungarian National Community have walked
out from the Romanian Senate, which passed the most chauvinistic "language
law" ever proposed.It would force the regions with 100% Hungarian population
to conduct their business in Romanian. We should emphasize in our letters
that even nations which have been at war provide more rights to the other
national community (Palestinians have more rights in Israel) and civilized
nations in peacetime (Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, Italy in Tyrol, etc.)
have shown, that respect for cultural autonomy is not only essential for
stability, but is no threat at all for the majority national community.

B2) Reuters is the source of the news which the outside world receives from
Romania.
The Reuters correspondents in Romania are: Karin Popescu, Roxana Dascalu,
Adrian Dascalu and Marko Bello. You can contact them by Fax: 011-401-615-8448
or telephone: 011-401-614-6573. It is very important that we report all
illegal acts, all violations of international standards of behavior or
violations of human rights (not only Hungarian, but Jewish, Roma, all) to
Reuters.

B3) To date I received 81 copies of letters asking President Clinton to write
to President Iliecsu. I suspect that 10-times that many been sent. Thanks to
all who took the time in this busy period to think of our oppressed brethren.
        As money talks, I would suggest that you send a copy of your E-Mail
letters to the President also to the Hon. John P. Murtha, ranking member of
both the Committee on Appropriations and National Security:
.

B4) In connection with the Duna TV broadcasts our actions seem to have
TEMPORARILY succeeded. The facts (thanks to Peter Kovalszki) seem to be as
follows: The "Audiovisual Law of 1992" in Romania forbids all censorship. In
August 1995 the Duna TV broadcasts by Analog (Timisoara/Temesvar-president
Eduard Suli) and International (Timisoara/Temesvar-president Tudor Petan)
were retroactively banned. The MP of Timisiara/Temesvar (dr.Ferenc Baranyi)
in the Romanian Parliament questioned the president of the responsible state
agency (Titus Raveica of The Audiovisual Council) and as a result he lifted
the ban. Later the same Audiovisual Council refused to approve the Duna TV
broadcasts of Intersat (Arad) and Seltron (Cluj/Kolozsvar), but they
disregarded the illegal ban.

C) FAX BROADCASTING

As you know, to a politician, a hand written signature has more weight than
an E-Mail. Our long standing goal has been to place 1000 signed petitions on
the desk of our President (or others) within 24 hours of the time, when an
illegal act comes to our attention.
      Thanks to Dr. Laszlo Bollyky and Prof. Szabolcs Petrovay, it seems that
our fax-broadcasting system will be operational shortly. It will work like
chain letters do and in addition to individuals, priests, pastors, rabbis,
scout or cultural organizations will take part in this effort. Please sign up
at Fax: 203-967-4845  ONLY IF your fax is fully automatic, because the
broadcast CAN NOT handle fax lines that need to be manually turned on.

D) CONGRATULATIONS

It is a pleasure to note the recognition given by the Hungarian government to
HHRF and to The Hungarian Coalition. The presidents of both organisations
(Laszlo Hamos and Edith Lauer) have dedicated their lifes to the protection
of the oppressed. There are no people more deserving of these awards than
they.

E) THE DANUBE

Toward the end of February, when I get back from Budapest and The Hague, one
of our HL projects will be to bring the pressure of international public
opinion to bear on the outcome of the lawsuit before the International Court.
In preparation for that effort, I will find the time in the next few days to
outline both the problem and the solution: which I call "The Compromise
Plan." I would like to ask you in advance to read that material, so that when
our campaign starts, you will be familiar with the facts.

F) AFTER JANUARY 8

Between January 8 and the end of February, I don't think that I will have
much access to E-Mail. Therefore, before that date, I will send the addresses
of all HL participants to all of you and to . Therefore our
work can and should continue in my absence, but it will continue only if you
help. So please initiate your own actions in that time period and keep up the
momentum. In the meanwhile, if any of your friends would want to join HL,
please send me their E-mail numbers.

Happy Holydays and best regars: Bela Liptak

Bela Liptak and I have no philisophical differences about the Roma people.
We just disagree on the meaning of the word 'assimilate'.  I use the word to
mean, 'to make like'.  Bela provides his own meaning.

>Yet I am sure that if the Roma people can be
>"assimilated" (I use this word simply to mean: "feel at home" or "feel
>comfortable") anywhere, it is Hungary.

Joe Szalai

Dear Paul (Gregor),

I did NOT say, that the US had no losses or only negligible!
So, I am not going to argue about whose suffering was greater.
The only thing that I do not like is the way how some americans
refer their activity during WWII. When they consider the
US presence in WWII as the real or the only decissive factor,
and everybody else just helped a little bit. This is true for
the war against Japan, but not really for the europian battle.
An example: USA Today, November 21,1995, page 4A,'Ex-Communist to
lead Poland'

>"Lech Walesa, the man who changed the history of Poland and of the
>world, met the fate of Winston Churchill." said onetime ally Adam
>Michnik, citing Churchill's defeat at the polls just after Britain
>helped defeat Nazi Germany in World War II.
 ^^^^^^

Maybe my English is poor and misunderstood something, but this
sounds very unpolite to me. And this is about the country which
was the only one in war with Germany for a year (1940-41).

Janos

>Dear Joe,
>
>The Roma want to be accepted and respected as human beings and be left alone.
>That is all they want and the Hungarians are very good at doing just that.
>Please do not misunderstand. I do not mean to say that  there is no prejudice
>against the Roma people in Hungary. No, there is intense prejudice, sometimes
>bordering on hatret. Yet I am sure that if the Roma people can be
>"assimilated" ...
>Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Bela!
I do not think that the Gypsies of Hungary want to assimilate in the
traditional sense. I don not believe that the average Hungarian today wish
to assimilate them either. Intermarriage is rare between them. The modern
Roma in Hungary wants to develop his own culture, his own language etc. At
present as in the past apartheid is the preferred life-style of both the
Hungarians and the Romas. The Hungarian nation excelled all in East Central
Europe in assimilating, absorbing, others since the 9th century with
notable exception of the Roma and the Jews. Without the will of two parties
there can be no assimilation.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Bela Liptak ) wrote:
:
: As a Green Party candidate in 1990 in Somogy County in Hungary,

for the benefit of those who are unaware of it the "green party"
in hungarian is not "green" in the sense of customary english
usage --- it is *not* an environmentalist group.

d.a.