Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 953
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-03-26
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  138 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: From Another Perspective (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: From Another Perspective (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: the 7 magyar tribes (megkovetlek, Istvan) (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Query: Johannes Sambucus (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: From Another Perspective (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
9 [Fwd: Re: Recent discussions about the economic situati (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
10 Who is on first? (mind)  87 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: [Fwd: Re: Recent discussions about the economic sit (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The comment I WAS making was not that the Hungarian governments were justified 
in bringing in numerus clausus but that they USED the example of The Ivy League
 Universities as justification. I think there is a great difference. With regar
d to the other point, the numerus clausus legislation in Hungary was enacted in
 1920, Hitler first appeared on the scene in 1923 and did not come to power unt
il 1932. I think I need not expand! Hungary in 1920 had just lost 2/3rd of its 
territory and a large proportion of its industry. It was not in a position econ
omically, when thousands of refugees were living in railway carriages, to expan
d the number of places at university level. Therefore it was a matter of redist
ribution of the available places. I hope that clarifies.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Sam Stowe[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 26 March 1997 9:23
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

Hey, Miklos!
Glad to see you are back from your recent travels.


In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> writes:

>Sam Stowe wrote:
>>
>> In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
>> > writes:
>>
>> >If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming =
>> >hold by individuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic =
>> >and cultural life.
>> >The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to =
>> >placate them by using means which had antecedents in other countries =
>> >such as England and the USA even if these were not officially supported =
>> >there.
>> >
>> >Regards
>> >D=E9nes=20
>> >
>> >
>>
>> See what I mean? He's not going to stop until he's transferred blame for
>what
>> post-war Hungarian governments chose to do to the country's Jewish
>population.
>> Sam Stowe


>No Sam, you didn4t ( want to?, I don4t want to believe that )
>understand.

The problem is that I understand only too well what he's up to. The correct
English colloquialism is "whitewashing."

>
>There is NOTHING that could justify what happened. The quotation was
>referring to a remark of Marina, ( POSSIBLY ) implying understanding
>with discrimination at the Ivy League university, and here at Columbia
>with a larger (  than in Hungary ) size of the Jewish population ). I
>was trying to correct THIS statement ( if I got it right ), at least
>percentwise.

I agree with you that nothing could justify what happened. Denes is the one
who's grasping at straws in that regard. My objection is specifically to his
comment in his last sentence that the Hungarians were only following the lead
of the British and the Americans. The truth is that the interwar Hungarian
governments came up with this stuff on their own and ultimately followed the
lead of the German Nazis in this regard to its cataclysmic conclusion.
(Soldier, in this army you alliterate or you fight. God, I

>
>a) IMHO and at the present state of the discussion the size of
>the         population should not justify discrimination, not even in
>the           republic ( which I love ) with justice and freedom for
>all.

The argument isn't over quantity. It's over the quality of the repression
involved.

>b) as far as proportions are concerned there appears to have been a
>   problem which was then misused by the wright.

What problem would that be, Miklos? Strange how it never occurred to the
interwar governments to expand access to higher education in Hungary rather
than simply kicking the Jews out to make more room for children drawn from a
small strata of Christian Hungarian society. It's part and parcel of the same
mentality which led pre-WWI Hungarian governments and inter-war governments
alike to restrict the nation's voting franchise. Plenty of lower-class
Christian Hungarian workers and rural peasants were just as s


>As to b) I think we would have to discuss the problem, how to handle
>and organize equal CHANCES for different segments of society. How about
>the economic prerequisites for an admittance to good universities?
>How about Afroamericans? Hispanics? etc. I admire what is being done
>by well-off people via foundations etc in this field. Still I think
>there remains a problem.

Perhaps it would be best at this point to split this discussion into two
threads: 1) a dialogue about numerus clausus in particular and 2) a discussion
of just what you outline above -- how to organize and handle equal opportunity
for different segments of society. Mingling the two merely serves to obscure
the morally catastrophic results which numerus clausus in particular and
anti-Semitism in general led to. I sense you are an admirer (or at least a
student) of Habermas as I am and we might have some fun

>
>Please forgive me, if I try to explain with American exemples. This is
>not intended to say, < see, how nasty, YOU are >, but rather since it
>appears to me that many list members are more familiar with the
>situation over there. I assure you, we have enough problems here, too.
>And even more in the former colonies of the USSR.

I think the latter thread I've suggested has important real-world ramifications
for current Hungarian society. From what I can gather, there are still large
groups of people in Hungary -- ciganyok and gays and lesbians come to mind
immediately -- who are marginalized. The question of providing them with
equality of opportunity would seem to be what William James would have termed a
live hypothesis.

>Take care!
>Miklos

You, too! I'm glad you're back with us.
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, jeliko
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.
>From:  jeliko >
>Date:  Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:53:11 -0500
>
>Sam Stowe writes:   (most deleted)
>
> The Hungarian situation during this time was far more serious --
>>numerus clausus was the law of the land and it was systematically enforced
>by
>>the government.
>
>No it was not.

Yes, it was. Glad to oblige you.
Sam Stowe





"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Re: From Another Perspective (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Csaba Zoltani (CICC/CTD) wrote:
>
> Numerus clausus by any name is wrong, indeed morally reprehensible.
> Wrong regardless of where and how it is practiced, in the 1920's Hungary
> or the 1990's under the aegis of affirmative action.
>
> In Hungary numerus clausus affected not only members of a religious
> minority but also others. Indeed, in the aftermath of Trianon the
> opportunity to study for certain professions was foreclosed to practically
> all. One was chemical engineering, which at this juncture was open to a
> total of two new students per year. The rest of the applicants were told
> that due to the loss of the chemical industry in the First World War,
> there was no need for chemical engineering students.
>
> A curious coincidence is that one of the reasons given by those who
> advocated the numerus clausus in Hungary was that they were "seeking
> balance" in the student population. It reminds one of the arguments put
> forth in our days to justify discrimination to further diversity.
>
> It is easy to pass judgment on others based on the accepted norms of
> today. It might be prudent for those tempted to ponder facets of our
> history and reflect on
>
> (1) Why are there diminishingly few women law partners today?
>
> (2) Why are the medical establishment's senior positions filled almost
> exclusively by white males?
>
> (3) The picture of Gov. Wallace standing in the doorway and barring
> a student from entering a university (this is the 1960's and not the
> 1920's).
>
> (4) Armed airborne troops escorting students to classes (in the Great
> Society of Lyndon Johnson).
>
> (5) Why are eminently qualified WASPs barred when at the same time,
> based on their ethnicity, applicants with SAT scores several hundred
> points lower are welcomed with open arms?
>
> Prof. Glazer in his recent book, "We are all Multiculturalists Now",
> Harvard University Press, 1977, states the case for inclusion and the
> "balance" that continues to offend those who are left on the outside.
>
> CSABA K ZOLTANI

A necessary remark, indeed. Half-informed moralist with no attempts to
differenciate are not only a nuisance but a danger. They focus on in-
stances - admittedly, on a gigantic one in this case ) of  violation of
human rights, human dignity, human life, of crimes against humanity and
not all of them. Mind you, we agree with their denouncing a case. But
you must denounce all other cases ( indians, indios, romas, curds,  bos-
niaks, negroes, tutsis, hutus,...), too if you want the containment of
aggressive intolerance.
+ - Re: From Another Perspective (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:59 AM 3/26/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>A necessary remark, indeed. Half-informed moralist with no attempts to
>differenciate are not only a nuisance but a danger. They focus on in-
>stances - admittedly, on a gigantic one in this case ) of  violation of
>human rights, human dignity, human life, of crimes against humanity and
>not all of them. Mind you, we agree with their denouncing a case. But
>you must denounce all other cases ( indians, indios, romas, curds,  bos-
>niaks, negroes, tutsis, hutus,...), too if you want the containment of
>aggressive intolerance.

In principle I agree. However, this group is called Hungary. Maybe we should
concentrate on it and on related issues....

Gabor D. Farkas

P.S. Last night we were announced that both the Forum (Szabad) and the
Szalon are terminated. These used to be the un-moderated and moderated
Hungarian language discussion groups on HIX.

I deplore the action.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:18 PM 3/26/97 +1000, Denes wrote:
>The comment I WAS making was not that the Hungarian governments were
justified in bringing in numerus clausus but that they USED the example of
The Ivy League Universities as justification.

        I don't quite understand that. Surely, the first Teleki government
or the Hungarian parliament of 1920 didn't try to justify the introduction
of numerus clausus by pointing the finger to the Ivy League universities. I
doubt that they even knew what they were. Moreover, restricting Jewish
enrollment was a fairly well kept secret. It wasn't out in the open, at
least at Yale, until a former student of mine discovered its existence in
the late 1970s and wrote a paper on the subject. Although he went to medical
school, he took a year off and wrote a larger book called Jews at Yale. Very
interesting, by the way. His name is Dan Oren.
        ESB
+ - Re: the 7 magyar tribes (megkovetlek, Istvan) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Comments on Dominus' posting.

I came back from extended trips and find that some historical questions
cropped up in the meantime. Sorry for getting into it this late.

First of all the records from the actual days are meager. There is also a
problem of names and titles being mixed up by various writers. There were
seven "hetmagyar" tribes and three tribes of Kabars who apparently merged
into one after joining the Hungarians.
It is possible (very little can be stated as sure, even if many historians
do it!), that the Kabars were directly submitted to one of the three leaders
(Harka, Gyula, Kende) of the tribal confederation, but we do not know which one
.

1) Ibn Hajjan (987-1076) writes: yila; "h,r; w.l.h.w.d.y; n.s.m'.n; l.(x).s;
r.w.d;
h.d.h.d.y for the seven tribal leaders. (Good luck in deciphering the arabic
transliterations) From this it appears that the yila is the Gyula title and
not name, the rest of them were guessed by various folks as Ecser, Bulcsudi,
Basman, Lel, Glad, (remember him from Anonymus?) and Harka (again a title).
Considering the -in my opinion  - lousy etymology being used quite often by
many historians, this is not much to go on.

2)Porphirogenitus (written about 952) lists the tribes but not their
specific leaders.
Kabars, Nyek, Megyer, Ku:rtu:gyarmat, Tarjan, Jeneh, Ker, Kesz. He also
lists Bulcsu as
a name with the title "karcha" (Harka)and his father as Kali. Unfortunately
he identifies Arpad only as *megas arkhon* while stating that the other two
leaders are the "jila" and "karcha". From this one can assume that Arpad was
the "kende". He also stated that the jila was a higher position than the karcha
.

3)Madzsar Tarihi (writing in the XVII century possibly from old records
filched from Hungary by the Turks, but according to some Turkish historians
he was a transylvanian convert: Arpad, Gyula, Kend, Szabolcs, U:rs, Lejl,
Bulcs. Again obviously titles and names are mixed.

4)Georgius Continuatus (the continuatiors of Georgius Hamartolus chronicles
about 948
list Arpad and Kuszan as leaders during the Bulgarian war with Symeon.

5)The Schwabian Chronicle shows for 904, that a large Hungarian armies
leader Kussal was murdered during a feast.

6) Anonymus (~1210) lists: the fathers of Arpad, Szabolcs, Kurszan, Ete,
Lel, (no son listed for Huba), Horka. He lists their fathers as Almos, Elod,
Kundu, Ond, Tas, Huba and Teteny. This is again a mixture of titles (Horka,
Kundu) and names some of which do not appear in chronogical order.

7) Kezai Simon (written about 1285) lists Arpad, Szabolcs, Gyula, O:rs,
Ku:nd, Lel,
Verbulcsu. (This is again a mixture of titles and names)

8)Thuroczy (1488) lists: Arpad, Szabolcs, Gyula, Ku:nd, Lel, Verbulcsu and
O:rs (other than the order the same as Kezai)

This is what is available. Based on the better known deaths of some of the
leaders shown in the various lists it appears that Lel, Verbulcsu could not
have been old enough at the time of the entry to be tribal leaders. Kurszan
may have been the kende and Almos may have been the gyula and Teteny's
unnamed father the horka at one time. There is no indication that the titles
were always inherited in the same tribe, thus tribal leader switches may
have taken place at the time of succession of a confederation title.

Regards,Jeliko




>OK. It,s difficult, the posting is not up anymore on this
>server. Somebody asked about the 7 tribes, OR the 7 chiefs
>of the magyars who led them to settle Hungary.
>I wrote to confirm Agi H., that the 7 chieftans were:
>A'rpa'd, Elo"d, Ond, Kond, Tass, Huba, To:ho:to:m.
>We contradicted Istvan L., saying: that's how we learned in
>elementary school, in or around 1942 (only I, Agi, of
>course, much-much later ;-)
>Since I consulted "A Magyarok kronikaja" (Thuroczy Janos)
>and Homan-Szegfu's : "Magyar Tortenet".
>Ecce:
>
>According to H.-Sz., the seven tribes were (and, I believe,
>that was the original question): Nye'k, Megyer,
>Ku:rtgyarmat, Tarjan, Jeno", Ke'r and Keszi.
>H.-Sz. also provides us with the names of seven elected
>Leutenants (hadnagyok tanacsa) as follows:
>A'rpa'd 's      father  A'lmos
>Szabolcs           ''   Elo"d
>Korca'n            ''   Kende
>Ete                ''   Ond
>Horka              ''   Te'te'ny
>Le'l               ''   Tass
>-no name stands here-   Huba
>
>Thuroczy's Kronika on the other hand provides us the names
>of the seven Kapitan'y who came in to settle the land:
>A'rpa'd, Szabolcs, Gyula, Ku:nd, Le'l, Ve'rbulcsu, and O:rs.
>
>
>Whether I lessened the confusion or caused it to grow, I
>don't know. Can somebody clarify?
>
>Thanks!
>Dominus
>
>P.s.:  But why the historians are so quiet? They are not
>required to opine, or judge; no whys or whatnots - only
>seven names they remember. If memorybanks are empty, fine.
>No dares, no comments from either sides.
>Thanks. D.v.
>
>
+ - Re: Query: Johannes Sambucus (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I do not recall this name, but some of these guys latinized their names and
it is possible that originally his name was something like Bodzai or Bodzas
(there could be other variations also (Nagybodzai, Kisbodzai, etc.)

Regards, Jeliko
>To all:
>
>   I have begun to work on the Hungarian born humanist Johannes Sambucus
>(1531-84).  He spent time in Italy, France, Germany, and at the courts of
>Maximilian II and Rudolf II.
>
>   I am at the point of collecting all of the information on him that I
>can find.  If anybody has any suggestions, I would be very grateful to
>hear them.
>
>   Thanks in advance.
>
>Darin Hayton
>History and Philosophy of Science
>University of Notre Dame
>
>
+ - Re: From Another Perspective (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S or G Farkas wrote:
>
> At 11:59 AM 3/26/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >A necessary remark, indeed. Half-informed moralist with no attempts to
> >differenciate are not only a nuisance but a danger. They focus on in-
> >stances - admittedly, on a gigantic one in this case ) of  violation of
> >human rights, human dignity, human life, of crimes against humanity and
> >not all of them. Mind you, we agree with their denouncing a case. But
> >you must denounce all other cases ( indians, indios, romas, curds,  bos-
> >niaks, negroes, tutsis, hutus,...), too if you want the containment of
> >aggressive intolerance.
>
> In principle I agree. However, this group is called Hungary. Maybe we should
> concentrate on it and on related issues....
>
Good joke! ( nem koetekedni akarok! ) After the thorough invastigation
of the Global Health Services with special attention to North America?
( though, I must confess I missed Mexico in nafta... ) :-)

( You cannot isolate Hungary from the rest of the world on these issues)
Miklos
+ - [Fwd: Re: Recent discussions about the economic situati (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Take, you are not gonna answer. That4s answer enough. M

--------------8CA6BBF190
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Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: >
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:35:43 +0100
From: "Miklos K. Hoffmann" >
Reply-To: Am, Hang, 11, D24794, Borgstedt
Organization: Hoffmann&Hoffmann
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 DT [de]C (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Hungarian Discussion List >
Subject: Re: Recent discussions about the economic situation in Hungary
References: >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 03:19 PM 3/23/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffman wrote:
>
> >During the recent discussions about the "evils of these days",
> >sometimes the situation in Hungary was mentioned, as well, not only
> >the merits of Canadian vs. US Health Care or the kulaks. As to the
> >Hungarian situation, it is worthwile to read an intervew with Havas
> >Gabor in yesterday4s ( March 22nd ) Nipszabadsag : Nem mind szeginy, aki
> >annak latszik. ( www.nepszabadsag.hu, than carry on )
> >Regards
>
> Nem mind szegeny, aki annak latszik, because the great pastime of this
> century is to look poor.  Poverty is just an illusion and most people who
> look poor are actually well off.
>
> It's interesting what one can learn in Nepszabadsag these days.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> Newspapers are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle
> accident and the collapse of civilisation.
>            -- George Bernard Shaw
Did you read it, Joe?
Miklos



--------------8CA6BBF190--
+ - Who is on first? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A few more notes regarding the Hungarian leaders of olden days. As mentioned
in the seven tribes posting, they had various cross tribal leaders. Lets see
who said what about these.

Ibn Rusta (after Dzsayhani): Their leader is named K.nd.h. (kende) he is
only a nominal king, becaus ethe man who is actually ruling them is called
G.L.h (gyula). In war every magyar follows the directives of the G.l.h and
in defense and in other areas.

Gardezi: Their ruler is K.nd.h. This the name of the greater king. The ruler
who is handling the affairs of state is called G.l.h. The magyars do what
the G.l.h orders.

Al Bakhri: Their king is called k.nd.h.

Hadud al Alam: The king of this copuntry is called h.l.t (probably
miswritten of g.l.h, i.e. gyula)

Marvazi: Their leaders name is K.nd.h

Sukhralla: Their leader is called K.ndah

Porphyrogenitus is the first to identify a karcha also. he states that the
archon is from the family of Arpad but there are two other leaders the jila
and the karcha who are filling the role of judges and additionally each
tribe has its own leader. In his time Bulcsu was the karcha and his father
Kali was also a karcha.

Monachus continuatus writes that the negotiations between the Byzantines and
the Hungarians were conducted by Arpad and Kusanes. (this was supposed to
take place BEFORE
the arrival in Hungary)

Ioannes Skylitzes: Their leader Bulcsu came to Constaninople and appeared to
lean toward the christian faith...Not much later Gyula who is also a leader
of the Hungarians (turks) also arrived in the imperial city and was
baptized... He took with him Hierotheos, a monk who was annoited by
Theophylaktos as bishop of Turkia.... it is also stated later that while
Bulcsu was a retrograde and executed by Otto, the Gyula stayed Christian.

Annales Alamennici: 904, The Bavarians invited the Hungarians to feast and
killed their leader Chusal and his retinue.

Bishop of Cambray: When notified of the king Bulcsu - as was told-  swore
revange...

Aventius' extract: 901, The Bavarians at the Fischa beat king Cusa and his
noble's army.

Aventius: In this year, according to the Christian dating of 889, the
neighbors who were called ugros and in their language magyars under king
Cusa leadership arrived from Scythia.... At Hengstoveld.....the king of the
Hungarians Cusala.. sent ambassadors...
The aembassy gained favor of Arnulf and he immediately agreed to their
suggestion, and ordered that the Moravians should be attacked from three
sides, Cusala and his Hungarians were assigned to Dacia [later he defines
Dacia starting at the Garam and reaching to the Black Sea]. From here on he
referrs to Cusal as king of the Hungarians.

From here on we have only Anonymus and his inventive mind. The question is,
at the time of arrival, who was what? If Porhpyrogenitus is right in stating
that the gyula is the next highest honor after the kendeh, which is well
indicated by the Arab and Persian writers also, then particularly for a
military arrangement the gyula would have to be present. The next puzzle is
the two identified names for negotiating the alliance with the Byzantines,
Arpad and Kusanes, which was the gyula? The later western indications are
that it was Kursan and not Arpad, but what was Arpad doing at the
negotiations when Almos was still supposed be alive? Why was the kende (or
more correctly the son of the kende) suddenly involved in affairs of the
state, which all earlier writers assign to the gyula? Where was the harka
before the identified frequent presence in Byzantium and the west in the
later years? Bulcsu got to be well known, but who ever heard of Kali his father
?

If the gyula became and stayed orthodox Christian, was the warfare between
Istvan and
the then current gyula a religious supremacy war? Was there a change in who
is doing what in the supratribal order after the arrival in Hungary, when
seemingly the descendents of Almos are taking over the affairs of state from
the gyula. Or did that really happen only at the time of Istvan and he used
western Christianity as a tool to grab the total power over the tribes? Did
Istvan started his Christian leanings from Sarolt who was the daughter of a
gyula, albeit from the orthodox side? Who was the harka at the time of Istvan?

Well, back to the time machine.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: [Fwd: Re: Recent discussions about the economic sit (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:01 PM 3/26/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Take, you are not gonna answer. That4s answer enough. M

I'll answer you.  No, I did not read the interview with Havas Gabor.  My
Hungarian reading skills are not good enough for serious reading.

I'm sorry for commenting on the title without reading the piece, first.
Sometimes I have trouble following the rules.

Joe Szalai

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