> Felado :  [United States]
>
> So it wasn't the medium (employer's facilities), but the message.  Thanks
> for sharing.
You seem absolutely not to understand this. Posting antisemitic messages is
like dumping chemical wastes -- no research lab or company, state-owned or
private, will want to have its name associated with such activities. It is not
the content of the messages that is problematic: if NPA had sent his stuff
from, say, AOL, his employers would have done nothing about it. Nor is the
fact that some messages were sent from an Argonne address problematic in and
of itself: had he posted a large body of messages about how homeopathic
medicine is superior to standard white-smock medicine it is doubtful that
events would have gone beyond a slap on the wrist.  It is the _combination_ of
these two factors that is deeply embarrassing for Argonne.

> As far as my "flat denial", he is wrong, and he knows it.  I said I had not
> seen the article Eva Balogh referred to (some nonsense about Jews drinking
> Christian blood) during the time (about a year and a half) that I read FORUM
> Then, lo and behold, Eva dredges up something from TWO years ago, written by
I don't think you can require people to know the precise time when you joined
a newsgroup. So E1va didn't know you didn't see the post in question: what she
knew was that you denied its existence. So she dug it out, which sounds like
a reasonable way of refuting your point.

> NPA, dealing with a trial in the last century.  Apparently the charges -
> ritual killing (sans blood drinking) of a girl by Jews - were dropped.
Indeed they were -- many historians place this event among the high points
of enlightened liberalism's triumph over medieval prejudices. Defense was
provided by Baron Jo1zsed Eo2tvo2s. A good novelistic writeup is Gyula
Kru1dy's "A tiszaeszla1ri Solymosi Eszter". Nevertheless, an underground
trickle of the medieval sentiment remained, and occasionally surfaces (e.g.
in the writings of NPA). An earlier example is Sa1ndor Pu2ski's publication
(in the early 1940's) of the memoires of the Tiszaeszla1r prosecutor, who
of course was firmly convinced that blood libel was reality. Given the
historic moment Pu2ski chose to republish these memoires, many felt that
he lent support to the nazi answer to the "Jewish question".

> Relax, Andras.  I was just curious why being called a Jew bothered you.  I
> don't know if Dr. Pellionisz meant it as an insult or not.  Why not just take
> it as a compliment and be done with it.  The race or religion of a person
> need not define his other qualities -- unless he wants it to.
Oh I do take it as a compliment -- in fact the mere fact that the good doctor
is trying to say nasty things about me is something of a compliment. I am
delighted to add "Rambo" A1rpi to this list, who wrote a few days ago on
FORUM (which I still don't read, but people forwarded this gem to me):

| De a betyar kurva hetszentsegit,megis,mit gondoltok hogy kik vagytok ti?A
| jelenlegi NPA elleni offenziva csak olaj a tuzre.Az ellenkezojet ertetek el
| amit akartatok.Mint egyszer irtam,felni,igen felunk,de a felelem ellenere
| szembeszallunk a hoherokkal.Mert azok vagytok Kornai,hoherok,mint apatok es
| testvereitek voltak! (...) ha van pokol,akkor annak tuze emessze azokat,
| akik szerencsetlen hazank es nepunk ellen askalodik!
|
| A Rambo Arpi.
It is nice of "Rambo" to leave my mother alone and concentrate on my father
and brothers instead. As it happens, neither of them has anything to be
ashamed of (to the contrary) and I take his words to be as much of a
compliment as those of Pellionisz.

Rimbaud Bandi
    aka
Andra1s Kornai

OK, after weeks (or has it been months?) of welcome silence, Szucs resurfaced
on FORUM with another of his diatribes.  The way Gabor Farkas and Eva Balogh
pounced, one can't help but wonder if the whole phenomenon were planted as
"evidence" of FORUM's unfitness to exist. :-(

Those who think they are better than Szucs should be careful to tone down
their reaction lest they be considered his equal in performing cheap
propaganda tricks.

Ferenc

On Sat Jun 15 12:35:44 EDT 1996 Gabor Farkas wrote in HUNGARY #700:

>I seem to remember that the Soviet Army withdrew from Romania in the late
>50s, early 60s, much later than the Marshall Plan.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

He is right.  Soviet troops were withdrawn from Romania after 1956, perhaps
in recognition of the services Romania's communist regime rendered in putting
down the Hungarian uprising.

Ferenc

-
        Does anyone on the list know what happened to the royal remains
unearthed at Szekesfehervar in the 1800s?  My latest info comes from an
early 1980s newspaper article that I found in one of my grandfather's
books.  All it says is that the bones were going to be tested in order to
possible identify complete sets (if I recall correctly, all the bones were
dumped together during their excavation).
        Also, which kings' burial places are known and marked? I'm going
back to the mother country on Monday and it would be interesting to visit
the sites (this means, of course, that this request is somewhat urgent
;-)).

        Norb

        P. S.  I know that most of the Habsburgs can be found in the
Church of the Capuchines in Vienna.

Norbert Ja'nos Udvardy-Walter      | "If a nation does not want a monarchy,
Fort Worth, Texas, USA             |  change the nation's mind.  If a nation
I-net:  |  does not need a monarchy, change the
3W: http://delta.is.tcu.edu/~walter|  nation's needs."       -- Jan C. Smuts

At 07:37 AM 6/16/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>The way Gabor Farkas...
>pounced, one can't help but wonder if the whole phenomenon were planted as
>"evidence" of FORUM's unfitness to exist. :-(
>
>Those who think they are better than Szucs should be careful to tone down
>their reaction lest they be considered his equal in performing cheap
>propaganda tricks.


I want to make my personal opinion clear.

1. I am for everyone's right to express their opinions, whether they share
my values or not. Many years of opressing the views of Szucs and his ilk in
Hungary (and generally, in Eastern Europe) did not make them disappear and
now it gives them the claim of martyrdom.

2. Also, it is much easier to rebuke their sick theories if they are in the
open. I am sure they hoped for much stronger public support but look what
they got. Only in Russia is Zhirinovsky somewhat successful but remember:
(indigenous) Nazis never came to power in Russia, the people there did not
have the experience of Hungary.

I do not agree with the closing of the Forum. If my stomach recovers I may
even return there to debate those who called me ordasFARKAS [literally
translated: fallowWOLF]. And yes, not everyone on the Forum is like NPA,
Szucs and their friends. However, very few of them ever raised their voices
against the contents of these Nazis' postings. That's what I found very sad.

Finally, dear Ferenc, after reading Szucs' last posting on the Forum, don't
you agree that it deserves the strongest reaction?

Gabor D. Farkas

Hi to All -

I found the discussion some time ago about the *kuruc* and *labanc*
political factions in Hungary quite interesting. Since the time of that
discussion, I had read Stephen Sisa's chapter in *The Spirit of Hungary*
about Ra'ko'czi, and through that I found that apparently the playing of the
*ta'rogato'* was characteristic of his followers. Almost by chance, I had
previously acquired a most lovely audiocassette tape, which might be of some
interest to the readers of this List. It is called *Hej, Ra'ko'czi!* and
features Nagy Csaba playing the ta'rogato', *ta'rogato'zik* in Hungarian. He
is backed up by an instrumental group which includes two violins, a viola,
cello, cimbalom, harpsichord, trumpet and percussion instruments. They play
Ra'ko'czi tunes (a Ra'ko'czi dallamko:r), Kuruc soldier songs (Kuruc
katonadalok), romantic Kuruc songs, and so on, and the sound of the
tarogato, a double-reed instrument a little deeper in pitch than a clarinet,
is haunting.

The label is Hungaroton Qualiton and the catalog number is MK10278. I
ordered it from Pannonia Books in Toronto, Ontario, but I would imagine it
could be ordered from most Hungarian bookstores in North America or Europe.

Yours respectfully,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

>To: 
>From: 
>Subject: Help re:Rejected posting to 
>
>I am getting the following message when I try to post to .
>
>
>
>>Return-Path: >
>>Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:07:46 -0400
>>From: "L-Soft list server at GWUVM (1.8b)" >
>>Subject:      Rejected posting to 
>>To: 
>>
>>You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY  list  from
your
 account. You might be authorized to send to the list
from
>>another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail  program
which
>>generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way  to
associate
>>this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you
have
>>any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please contact the
list
>>owners: .
>>
>>------------------------ Rejected message (118 lines)
-------------------------
>>Received: from GWUVM (SMTPUSER) by GWUVM.GWU.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with
>> BSMTP id 6592; Sat, 15 Jun 96 15:06:04 EDT
>>Received: from skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU by gwuvm.gwu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with
TCP;
>>   Sat, 15 Jun 96 15:06:02 EDT
>>Received: from skysrv
>>           by skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:05:31 -0400
>>Received: from mail.internet.com (yipee-p.internet.com)
>>           by skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:05:07 -0400
>>Sender: 
>>Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) b
y
>> mail.internet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28517 for >;
>> Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:05:09 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: 
>>Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ny18-02.ix.netcom.com [205.186.166.130]) by
>> dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA01498 for
>> >; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:04:28 -0700
>>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:04:28 -0700
>>Message-Id: >
>>X-Sender: 
>>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5
>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>To: 
>>Subject:
>

I am getting the following message when I try to post to .



>>Return-Path: >
>>Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:07:46 -0400
>>From: "L-Soft list server at GWUVM (1.8b)" >
>>Subject:      Rejected posting to 
>>To: 
>>
>>You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY  list  from
your
 account. You might be authorized to send to the list
from
>>another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail  program
which
>>generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way  to
associate
>>this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you
have
>>any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please contact the
list
>>owners: .
>>
>>------------------------ Rejected message (118 lines)
-------------------------
>>Received: from GWUVM (SMTPUSER) by GWUVM.GWU.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with
>> BSMTP id 6592; Sat, 15 Jun 96 15:06:04 EDT
>>Received: from skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU by gwuvm.gwu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with
TCP;
>>   Sat, 15 Jun 96 15:06:02 EDT
>>Received: from skysrv
>>           by skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:05:31 -0400
>>Received: from mail.internet.com (yipee-p.internet.com)
>>           by skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:05:07 -0400
>>Sender: 
>>Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) b
y
>> mail.internet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28517 for >;
>> Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:05:09 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: 
>>Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ny18-02.ix.netcom.com [205.186.166.130]) by
>> dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA01498 for
>> >; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:04:28 -0700
>>Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:04:28 -0700
>>Message-Id: >
>>X-Sender: 
>>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5
>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>To: 
>>Subject:
>

At 10:41 PM 6/15/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>If FORUM were such a "hotbed" of MIEP-ers or any other persuasion, people
>would not have much to argue about, would they?  What do we see there
>instead?  A wide range of opinions.

        Unfortunately, the above description is not quite accurate. Although
I assume that there is a "wide range of opinions" among the readers of and
contributors to the Forum, the more moderate conservative right never raises
its voice against the extremists. The reason, I assume, is the following:
they may not agree with the antisemitic MIEP faction on all issues, but, at
the same time, they can't bring themselves to turn against them either, in
case it would be interpreted as a friendly gesture to the "liberals," whom
they despise just as much as the extreme right does. Therefore, every time
there is a "hot topic" discussed only the extremists write and their
writings are answered by two or three "liberals." The "liberal" camp is so
small that I can count them on one hand. The conservative right acts if the
offending postings didn't exist. I personally asked some of them to raise
their voices against the extremists, because silence means agreement. They
refused.

>Yes, there are sometimes offending
>views, from anti-Jewish to anti-Christian, just like here.  The quoted
>statements were carefully selected from the former category.  (Actually, one
>of them, about the SzDSz being a Jewish party, is from one of Eva Balogh's
>posts - if memory serves - citing some opinions heard in Hungary.  But no
>evidence was offered one way or the other.)

        I am not sure what "quoted statements . . . carefully selected" you
are talking about. This is the first problem. The second is that what you
are doing here is what current Hungarian slang calls "csusztatas." You are
talking about "offending views" and in the same breath you claim that one of
these postings actually came from Eva Balogh. I really would like you to
produce an antisemitic (offending) posting from me. Yes, a few months ago I
did say something about the widespread perception in Hungary that the SZDSZ
is a "Jewish party," but I don't think that "evidence" must be offered for
that statement. References to the right's calling the SZDSZ "Jewish,"
"cosmpolitan," "rootless," "alien," is commonplace in the Hungarian press.
One doesn't need some kind of statistical evidence to make such a statement.

>As far as my "flat denial", he is wrong, and he knows it.  I said I had not
>seen the article Eva Balogh referred to (some nonsense about Jews drinking
>Christian blood) during the time (about a year and a half) that I read FORUM.
> Then, lo and behold, Eva dredges up something from TWO years ago, written by
>NPA, dealing with a trial in the last century.  Apparently the charges -
>ritual killing (sans blood drinking) of a girl by Jews - were dropped.

        You know, Ferenc, there are a couple things in life I really
dislike. I get a bit upset when people don't do the necessary research on a
topic, in this case, the blood libel issue. Second, taking things far too
literally. NPA gave a fairly sweeping overview of blood libel cases, one of
which was in the last century. But, for Pete's sake, what is the difference.
Does it really matter whether NPA is talking about the last century, or the
fifteenth century, or the second century, for that matter. He seems to
believe that these blood libel cases were not based on trumped up charges.
According to him, they were true. So was the nineteenth-century Hungarian
case, the famous Tiszaeszlar murder trial. As for drinking blood. Again,
Nemenyi may not have specifically said that the Jews killed Christians for
their blood but, in fact, everybody who knows anything about these trials
know that according to their accusers, the Jews didn't just kill Christians
for the sake of killing and disposed the bodies in the first ditch they
could find. Just as in the case of Tiszaeszlar, the fourteen-year old girl
was supposedly killed for her blood, which was then allegedly used for
ritual purposes. The blood was allegedly used in preparation of Passover
matzo. In Tiszaeszlar, the two men who did the circumcisions in the village
were accused of draining Eszter Solymosi of her blood, by cutting her
throat. That's why these cases are called "ve'rva'dak" in Hungarian.

        Eva Balogh

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Andras Kornai quoted:

........"Rambo" A1rpi ... who wrote a few days ago on
> FORUM (which I still don't read, but people forwarded this gem to me):
>
> | De a betyar kurva hetszentsegit,megis,mit gondoltok hogy kik vagytok ti?A
> | jelenlegi NPA elleni offenziva csak olaj a tuzre.Az ellenkezojet ertetek el
> | amit akartatok.Mint egyszer irtam,felni,igen felunk,de a felelem ellenere
> | szembeszallunk a hoherokkal.Mert azok vagytok Kornai,hoherok,mint apatok es
> | testvereitek voltak! (...) ha van pokol,akkor annak tuze emessze azokat,
> | akik szerencsetlen hazank es nepunk ellen askalodik!
> |
> | A Rambo Arpi.
> It is nice of "Rambo" to leave my mother alone and concentrate on my father
> and brothers instead. As it happens, neither of them has anything to be
> ashamed of (to the contrary) and I take his words to be as much of a
> compliment as those of Pellionisz.
>
> Rimbaud Bandi
>     aka
> Andra1s Kornai
>


Andras - or anyone on the list:

For the benefit of those who do not read Hungarian, please translate the
above passage, to fully demonstrate its forceful and accusatory language.

Martha

There is a segment on tonight's "60 Minutes" on the above topic.  I am
sure we can all learn something valuable from it.

Tune in!

Martha

Gabor,

I plead guilty on one count:  I had not kept up with the news about the
drought and its consequences in North Korea.

Still, to dole out ANY money for a country that is threatening to forcefully
overtake another, not only verbally, but with actual military incursions,
seems odd, to say the least...

Could we have at least set some conditions to the N. Koreans receiving this
aid?  IMHO, it would have been the bare minimum to expect, as we have our
own soldiers in jeopardy, right on their southern border!

You know: "tit for tat."

Martha



On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> At 11:42 PM 6/14/96 -0400, Martha wrote:
>
> >* The State Department has announced a formal decision to give $6.2
> >  million in emergency food aid to North Korea.
> >
> >I am not suggesting that *we* let people starve.  It is, however, as in the
> >case of Iraq, an internal decision: production of arms takes precedent
> >over feeding the people.  We act as enablers.
> >
> >They tell parents to use *toughlove* with their wavering children.  Can you
> >see a parallel?
>
> I think the parallel is not complete. It is true that North Korea is a
> military dictatorship. However, the present (larger than usual) lack of food
> seems to have been caused by a big drought. People are eating weeds (there
> was a recent article about this in The New York Times). Those people can do
> very little about the system in their country.
>
> I principle I agree with the *toughlove* method. But how to do it there?
> Wait until a few million starve to death and see whether they will become
> deperate enough to fight the army with their bear hands? Hard for me to
 answer.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>

At 07:37 AM 6/16/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>OK, after weeks (or has it been months?) of welcome silence, Szucs resurfaced
>on FORUM with another of his diatribes.  The way Gabor Farkas and Eva Balogh
>pounced, one can't help but wonder if the whole phenomenon were planted as
>"evidence" of FORUM's unfitness to exist. :-(

        I can't help but admire some people's blindness. Every time a
*really* offending piece appears on the Forum, the people on the right
simply refuse to believe that it is one of *them* who wrote the article. No,
no! It is "planted" by the other side, by those horrible "liberals" in order
to discredit the whiter than white Hungarian right. Just as those horrible
"liberals" dressed up as neo-Nazis (taking cloths out of the theaters'
wardrobes) and shouted down the President of the Republic and former 1956
victim. And why? To discredit the "national right."  Well, dear Ferenc, the
style of this piece is unmistakable: genuine Pellionisz through and through.
And if you think that any of us would sink as low as planting evidence to
discredit the Forum, dream on.

>Those who think they are better than Szucs should be careful to tone down
>their reaction lest they be considered his equal in performing cheap
>propaganda tricks.

        To tone down the reaction? Propaganda tricks? Ferenc, as the
Hungarian slang expression says: el vagy Te aztan tajolva!! You are not
quite with it. You are deluding yourself.

        Eva Balogh

On the topic of old Internet postings causing inconvenience to the author
later, read the following article by Lauren Weinstein, moderator of the
Privacy Forum (to subscribe, send a message consisting of the word "help"
in the BODY of a message to: "").  If I might
add one thought to Lauren's analysis: the use of anonymous identities
such as the siliconvalley ruse does not really give people immunity from
the danger of future employers, co-workers, or grant committees becoming
aware of their earlier Net writings.  Many computer-savvy 16 year olds
can become root on pelliovalley.com in 15 minutes while sitting in front
of a laptop in their own bedroom.  Quite a number of them are likely to
work for the U.S. Government now or in the future.  The truth is the Net
can make everyone a public person whose past statements and youthful
indiscretions may come back to haunt them later.  It is good to keep this
in mind every time you post...

-----
Gabor Fencsik


------------------------------
Date:    Sat, 08 Jun 96 16:17:21 PDT
From:     (Lauren Weinstein; PRIVACY Forum Moderator)
Subject: Re: Publishing on the net and old usenet postings

This is an extremly significant topic, and one I discuss frequently.  Having
been writing publicly via ARPANET/Internet since the early 70's, there is a
vast quantity of my writings and public messages now online, going back to my
college days at UCLA.  I don't feel uncomfortable with any of it being out
there, since in general I always figured I was writing to a public audience
and that public meant *public*--forever.  Is availability of the archived
public materials really a problem in and of itself?  I personally I don't so.

It seems likely that persons who don't feel comfortable with their public
writings being permanently archived and available will need to decide if
they want to write publicly on the Internet (or similar venues) in the first
place.  It's much the same as politicians, judges, and others who find their
early speeches and writings scrutinized when they come up for new offices or
appointments.  Such processes have been going on for a very long time,
though without a doubt the vast increases in online storage capacity,
advanced search engines, and similar technological developments have brought
the cost to perform amazingly detailed seaches regarding anyone's public
writings on the Internet (or many other places) down close to zero.

One problem is that many persons new to these systems simply don't realize
that their public writings (and most private email) on the net are routinely
archived (the former for later public access, the latter typically only for
system backup purposes, not for public availability!).  Many new users are
still thinking in terms of personal telephone calls, which normally don't
have a prolonged existence.  Education of users as to the possible
ramifications of public statements on the network is key to helping resolve
these concerns.

Issues of misinformation, propaganda, libel, etc. (and the ability of any
misinformation or other lies to stay around "forever" on the net) are a
different matter and a terribly serious one, but no non-draconian solutions
are obvious.  The essential character of the Internet, allowing individuals
to potentially reach masses of persons (very cheaply--or free) without
intervening truthfulness, sanity, reality, editorial, or other checks, is
something the world has never seen before.

I am not convinced that truth will necessarily overcome lies in this
regard.  Persons whose goal is to spread misinformation are usually much
more willing to saturate the net with their materials in an abusive manner
than would be the target of such actions with a rebuttal.  The result--the
original misinformation is much more widespread, probably more memorable for
being inflammatory in the first place, and may well show up in later
searches without any rebuttal attached.  But are there solutions that
wouldn't entail egregious free speech limitations?  I hope so.  Probably the
worst scenarios involve "anonymous" attacks, where existing libel laws--one
of the few legal remedies available, can be rendered impotent.

Many of us who were on the net starting in the earliest ARPANET days
recognized the potential power of the medium even then, even with the
relatively tiny and highly skewed (toward high-level technical individuals
at a very limited number of locations) user community of the time.  But it
*was* a very small community by today's standards, and we knew that with
very few exceptions nobody in the community would be abusive.

I don't think that any of us really anticipated the explosive growth and
infrastructural changes that would very suddenly place these tools, grown by
orders of magnitude in their reach, speed, and influence, but still
much the same as our original designs in many fundamental aspects, in
the hands of essentially the entire world's population.  But the genie is
most certainly out of the bottle, and our goal now must be to do our utmost
to try steer the almost unimaginable forces unleashed towards good, however
challenging the task, and however many setbacks we might endure.  There are
no guarantees of success by any means.  But it should be interesting.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

At 04:34 AM 6/16/96 -0500, Andras Kornai, answering Ferenc Novak, wrote:

>Indeed they were -- many historians place this event [the Tiszaeszlar
murder trial] among the high points
>of enlightened liberalism's triumph over medieval prejudices. Defense was
>provided by Baron Jo1zsed Eo2tvo2s. A good novelistic writeup is Gyula
>Kru1dy's "A tiszaeszla1ri Solymosi Eszter". Nevertheless, an underground
>trickle of the medieval sentiment remained, and occasionally surfaces (e.g.
>in the writings of NPA). An earlier example is Sa1ndor Pu2ski's publication
>(in the early 1940's) of the memoires of the Tiszaeszla1r prosecutor, who
>of course was firmly convinced that blood libel was reality. Given the
>historic moment Pu2ski chose to republish these memoires, many felt that
>he lent support to the nazi answer to the "Jewish question".

        Because we have been talking about the Tiszaeszlar case, I think it
is time to give the background to the trial and, of course, the trial
itself. It is a fairly long story but I will try to make it as short and
comprehensive as possible.

        On April 1, Eszter Solymosi, a fourteen-year-old servant of Andras
Huri disappeared never to return. As it turned out, she threw herself into
the Tisza River, comitting suicide. Soon afterward rumors began in the
village of Tiszaeszlar that the local Jews were responsible for Eszter's
murder--murder of the blood libel kind. Soon these rumors spread nationwide.
Two antisemitic members of parliament, Geza Onody and Gyozo Istoczy, began a
campaign against Hungarian Jewry in general, demanding their expulsion from
the country. On May 4, the mother of Eszter appeared before the village
judge (falusi biro) and brought charges against the Jews of Tiszaeszlar for
the murder of her daughter. Tiszaeszlar belonged to the court of Nyiregyhaza
which sent out Judge Bary (vizsgalobiro) who turned out to be quite
antisemitic. He immediately arrested two men who normally performed
circumcisions in the village and began the investigation by intimidating the
five-year-old son of an employee of the Jewish congregation. Offering him
candies and also frightening the child to death, Samuel Scharf confessed:
yes, his father, Joseph, lured Eszter into the synagogue and cut her throat.
The boy added that he and his brother, the thirteen-year-old Moric, actually
helped extracting the blood from the body. Jozsef Scharf and his wife were
immediately arrested and Moric was put under the care of a certain Mr.
Peczely of dubious background: He had already spent twelve years in jail for
murder. Mr. Peczely within a few hours managed to convince, with beatings
and threats, thirteen-year-old Moric, who until then steadfastly denied any
knowledge of the ritual murder, to confess. Details of the most incredible
nature followed which, Moric said, he saw through the keyhole of the main
gate of the synagogue. Later it turned out that through the keyhole you
can't see the spot where the crime was supposed to take place. Although
Judge Bary couldn't find any evidence (blood, body, or anything else) he
arrested twelve Jews in connection with the alleged murder. Moric Scharf was
thrown in jail in order to keep him apart from the rest of the Jewish
community. Meanwhile, on June 18th, the semi-decomposed body of Eszter was
found on the bank of the Tisza river at Tiszadada. The doctor of the
district and a woman from Tiszaeszlar identified the body as that of
Eszter's. Her own mother refused to recognize her although she had to admit
that the cloths the girl wore was hers. Judge Bary was not satisfied with
these results and called in outside experts: doctors who swore that the
victim was older than fourteen, maybe eighteen or twenty and that the death
took place only 8 or 10 days before. The body of Eszter therefore was
buried. The antisemites around, including the Catholic priest of
Tiszaeszlar, began a new round of accusations: the cloths of Eszter were put
on another dead body by the Jews and a boatman was paid off to do the deed.
Judge Bary ordered a new series of arrests. Meanwhile the event kept the
Hungarian papers busy for months and soon enough all European papers were
full of the stories of the Tiszaeszlar case.

        The defense lawyers were Karoly Eotvos, member of parliament, Bernat
Friedmann, Ignac Heumann and Miksa Szekely. At the insistence of the
defense, the body of Eszter was exhumed and the panel of experts were able
to put to rest the story of cutting the throat as the cause of death. The
only witness was the child Moric whose story was inconsistent at several
places. On August 3, the panel of judges unanimously found the arrested Jews
not guilty of murder of Eszter Solymosi. After the trial was over Jozsef
Scharf moved to Budapest, taking along Moric who later admitted that the
confession was forced out of him. Moric eventually moved to Amsterdam where
he became a diamond cutter, established a family. He died in 1924.

        Mr. Nemenyi was certain that justice wasn't served in this case: the
Jews of Tiszaeszlar were responsible for the death of Eszter Solymosi. If I
recall, Mr. Nemenyi even wrote me a private letter in which he tried to
convince me that certain facts of the case were suppressed and we are able
to hear only the tainted, Jewish version, of the case. The details of a
lengthy discussion on this case can be found in the archives of the Forum.

        Eva Balogh

Hi:

This is a silly request, but I'm hoping some generous soul will be
willing to assist me. My girlfriend's father is a Hungarian emigre
living in Sweden. Thus far, she has not had much luck getting her
father to hit it off with her American friends. Any tips of a "cultural
difference" nature that might help me to win him over?

First, of course, try to find out why particularly he doesn't hit it off
with them.  Is it because he's anti-social in general, or anti-American in
particular?  If the former, there's no help, but if it's the latter, next
try to find out why.  Is it something personal that happened to him
because of Americans?  Or maybe it's intellectual.  Perhaps, like many
Hungarians, he's a good talker, and all your girlfriend's friends say in
conversation is "Cool!"  If so, I would shun them also.

So you must do some detective work.  There's always a reason--find it, and
half your problem's solved.

Good luck,
Burian

I thought that the point of casting off the abovementioned persona
was not to have to enjoy the bloodcurling writings under that name.

So, what is the point of importing the same bile from FORUM ?
Might as well invite "Mr Szucs" back.

George Antony

Responding to Martha Bihari:
>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Andras Kornai quoted:

>Andras - or anyone on the list:
>
>For the benefit of those who do not read Hungarian, please translate the
>above passage, to fully demonstrate its forceful and accusatory language.
>
Dear Martha

I read Andra's' post along with the quote from Rambo, and had thought of the
fact that someone ought to translate it.  In retrospect, I honestly don't
think that it is possible to do so from a point of view of cultural
differences.  Rambo utilized the absolute lowest of tactics in that posting;
and many second generation Hungarians could never identify with that.  To
expound;  swearing in Hungarian against any religion, against one's parents,
most specifically one's Mother,  have (at least in my generation) been
regarded as highest of imaginable insults one could possibly utilize.
Rambo's posting was not only filled with incredible swear words, but also
encompassed all the above taboos, with the exception of mentioning Andra's's
Mother.

So, if anyone does take the trouble of translating that piece of "barf", all
the power to them.  But the readers ought also to keep the above in mind
while reading the translation - I think that it will help them to put things
in clearer perspective.

As for a personal opinion.... I still strongly believe that we all come from
within.  If this is remotely accurate, than I have an extremely clear idea
of Rambo's persona....one, who's words in my opinion, are clearly not worth
the effort of translation.  In fact I will say once I again, not knowing
Kornai from a hole in the ground....and not being in total tune with in the
past of this discussion, as such considering myself to be a totally unbiased
outsider while reading Rambo's words,  I must add.... Kornai's  response was
ideal, if not perfect - in my opinion... and this is my "ke't fille'r's" worth.

Regards,
Aniko

At 12:38 PM 6/16/96 -0400, Marha wrote:

>Still, to dole out ANY money for a country that is threatening to forcefully
>overtake another, not only verbally, but with actual military incursions,
>seems odd, to say the least...


I agree. My understanding is that we are not giving them money but actual
food. Even under those conditions I find it hard to swallow it. However, I
remember when I used to live under the Ceausescu regime and there was
practically nothing I could do against it. So, economic help was denied to
the whole country. We, the ordinary people suffered, the rulers continued
their good life undisturbed.

>Could we have at least set some conditions to the N. Koreans receiving this
>aid?  IMHO, it would have been the bare minimum to expect, as we have our
>own soldiers in jeopardy, right on their southern border!
>
>You know: "tit for tat."

Maybe there is some of that (hey, this even rhymes;-). I am convinced that
the State Department is doing its best to get some concessions.

 Gabor D. Farkas

Ferenc Novak wrote:
> I do not wish to continue the fruitless discussion with George Antony.

I am sorry if you consider a discussion fruitless when the other side
does not agree with you.  But you just continued it.

>  Clearly our experiences and opinions of the Kadar regime differ greatly.  If
> he had no problems traveling abroad in the sixties and seventies, good for
> him.  But for most, it was not so easy.

I was under the (perhaps false) impression that you did not live in Hungary
in the '60s and '70s.  If so, how do you know that the lamentable experience
of your fiancee was the norm as far as the ability of Hungarians to travel is
concerned, and not mine ?

George Antony

Dear Eva:

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us about the Tiszaeszlar murder
trial.  (Some of us... like little old moi, had no knowledge of where and
how it all began... and am afraid that digging in archives, for every single
detail mentioned now, re past discussions would take up so much
time......btw; amazing story!!!
<snipp>
>        Mr. Nemenyi was certain that justice wasn't served in this case: the
>Jews of Tiszaeszlar were responsible for the death of Eszter Solymosi. If I
>recall, Mr. Nemenyi even wrote me a private letter in which he tried to
>convince me that certain facts of the case were suppressed and we are able
>to hear only the tainted, Jewish version, of the case. The details of a
>lengthy discussion on this case can be found in the archives of the Forum.

But really, Eva; considering the company he keeps with Silly.con's, do you
really find this surprising?  I mean, think of all of the reincarnations and
pseudo personalities that have simply popped up on this list to date, let
alone the Forum.... likely, NPA's next claim to fame or main topic of
conversations will be the claim that he is a reincarnation of some little ol
guy, who was actually present during the suicide/murder..... and as such
feels compelled to bring the truth to light in this lifetime????;)

Regards,
Aniko
>

In article >,  says...
>
>Hi:
>
>This is a silly request, but I'm hoping some generous soul will be
>willing to assist me. My girlfriend's father is a Hungarian emigre
>living in Sweden. Thus far, she has not had much luck getting her
>father to hit it off with her American friends. Any tips of a "cultural
>difference" nature that might help me to win him over?

As far as I am concerned, the cultural difference cannot be bridged.
There, of course is also a generatin gap to be considered.  However, that
doesn't mean that there cannot be a good relationship.  My children, as
well as the children of all my Hungarian friends married Canadians and we
have very good relationships with our son/daughter-in-laws despite the
cultural differences.
Regards, Agnes

At 10:34 AM 6/17/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>I thought that the point of casting off the abovementioned persona
>was not to have to enjoy the bloodcurling writings under that name.
>
>So, what is the point of importing the same bile from FORUM ?
>Might as well invite "Mr Szucs" back.


Mea culpa, never again.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 01:25 PM 6/16/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi:
>
>This is a silly request, but I'm hoping some generous soul will be
>willing to assist me. My girlfriend's father is a Hungarian emigre
>living in Sweden. Thus far, she has not had much luck getting her
>father to hit it off with her American friends. Any tips of a "cultural
>difference" nature that might help me to win him over?
>
Hi to you too, Kevin!

I am confused!  What does Sweeden, have to do with American friends?
(Likely another silly request, one however that leaves me confused).

The way I see it, is that people are people, period (idealistic ha?)
However, I speak of experience.  Many times, I have had several what we may
consider to be "confilicting cultures" right under my roof.  Turned out with
amazing results, once it was brought to attention that we are gathered, in a
private home, as "PEOPLE", period.  And, that the host/hostess requests
that, all political, religous, etc differences be kept aside for the
duration of the co-habitation.

Now I am not saying that getting the last statement accross always came
easy, but I can honestly say that the end results, have always been nothing
short of positive if not amazing.  Once the above barriers have been
successfully eliminated, the rest fell nicely into place.... resulting in
great exchanges of words re differences; without any personal digs or
demeaning stuff for the others's belief...

Is this sort of what you were looking for???

Regards.
Aniko
>

Quoting Agnes Heringer

>As far as I am concerned, the cultural difference cannot be bridged.

Dear Agnes:

If I were made to believe this statement to be a fact, I would truly
consider the threat of humanity to be in danger of extinction...  This, is
an exteremely serious statement, one which I wholeheartedly disagree with!
I give humanity  more credit than this.... and have, and and exercised it,
and so far, it has not yet let me down.

Now, if you were to say that religious differences cannot be bridged, I
would give your thought pattern the necessary leaway it deserves... but
cultural?... No bloody way!  I repeat,.... I give humanity far more credit
that that!  Sorry Agnes, your statement is truly "out to lunch" at least in
my opinion!

Regards,
Aniko