Burian wrote:
>
> Re the obvious demoralization of Hungarians in not even being up to
> celebrating the 1100th anniversary . . .
>
> Here's a terrible generalization from an outsider: but I feel the
> Hungarians are demoralized because they overcame fascism and communism to
> reach freedom (the capitalist version), and look what they've got.  This
> was supposed to be the pinnacle of life, and now there's nothing beyond,
> only the abyss.  What future can "Hungary" possibly have if this is how
> people (or rather, politicians) treat their compatriots under freedom?  It
> looks like Arpad's taken his last ride, unless the "H" in Hungary can come
> to stand for Humanism.
>
> Burian


Wake up Huhgary

Yes, Mark suggested that YAHWEH is #*^&#%@

This is acceptable in the context it was written:

If AIDS is a tool of god to punish and control homosexuals, then this *@&!$#
is a very suitable name for YAHWEH.  I repeat: What do you call an inept
spreader of a ghastly, horrid disease who can't distinguish between "immoral,
disturbed" homosexuals, babies, mothers, hemopheliacs... and not lesbians!??
Do you think this vindictive YAHWEH would then be rightfully called a

"Loving, Just and Holy Creator" ???

It is so tiring to see that when some people cannot counter points and argument
s
that I have made that they have to try to sidestep the issues by constantly
harping on one term used in an argument.


Peter, you previously said something to the effect that there are ways to
interpret natural phenomena etc...  Well, that's nice.  Why then, if something
bad happens to homosexuals or "opposing groups" that is god's action to destroy
them and teach them a lesson.  HOWEVER, if something bad happens to the Church
or a Christian group or person, these religious people yell: "The will of god
is mysterious and unknowning.  Only He understands! The lord giveth and taketh
away!"  Well, why the hypocritical double standard????  That is what I find so
funny when the Pope J-Paul I died or when the Church in E. Europe was in chains
:
no one made dreadful judgements from god on any of this....

I feel I have been expressing myself well in these debates.  I am the one who
has brought up points you often agree with and asked questions you have not
been able to answer except with vague statement about god and nature...

I find this tiresome tirade on my saying that 'that kind of a Yahweh would be a
fa-fej' to be so weak and low.  Look at the context it was used and think about
what was being said.

Thank you (Notice I always thank others for their comments and have often acted
in a very civil manner.),

- Mark             NOTE:

(I learned faszfej just recently from that nice conservative gentleman who had
the posting re: faszfejek and szabadmadarok...  That posting was flipped a num-
ber of times on the List. Why was nothing said then?  He stated it maliciously,
I stated it in a sarcastic case argument: " If a god WOULD do this, He seems
like a f--fej."  Pls don't convolute and change that. I'll say "pooh-pooh
bottom" next time.

(SEE MARK'S RESPONSE BELOW>)


> Well there is an instruction book to life called the Bible.
> Yes you are right, that there seem to be many many contradictory
> pieces in there. One cannot take out segments too well and
> try to complete or infer one thing..it seems to go together as a whole.
> In fact there are many places that were sealed from people till the end
> time( or just before).
>
> Perhaps Mark and others, it may behove all of us to read and discuss it
> more.
>
> Yes God does punish those who do not follow his laws -- that is clear from
> all of the biblical references. Why do you think that Britain has
> the Mad Cow disease?? Because they stopped following the prescribed
> feeding suggested in the bible. They starteed to feed animal matter
> to cows that were designed for grasses Greed got the better of them, as
> it will
> here in the USA and elsewhere.
>
> Here is something to chew on Hungary...perhaps you have been not keeping
> the laws of God... with all those lies, cheating, theft, abortions, etc
> ,etc.
>
> Peter Soltesz
>

Dear Peter:

Yes, the Bible can be an instruction book on life.  Therefore, I am still
waiting for someone to show me where in the New Testament Jesus talks of
discrimination of groups and supports and unfair treatment of people who
are gay.  EXACTLY: you can't just take segments of one thing and infer it
to another thing.

The Bible is an instruction book.  I am sure slave owners, fighters of idolator
s
and people into incest and polygamy could find some very good stories.  (This
is just sarcastic, but still true.  I, also, think the Bible has many stories
of great value and knowledge.... but that does not make it teflon and free from
any criticism!)

What is your suggestion for the curing of madcow disease?  Prayer?    Well,
Romania didn't have abortion and they are in a similar mess.  Good or bad,
everything that goes up comes down.

** I thought the way of this god is so mysterious, unknowing and powerful.
 Why do you feel it is so clear and understandable that you can even understand
 why he brought mad cow disease? ***

Even the saints who supposedly followed god's word died... often horrible
 deaths... like everyone else. Could you please analyze this? In the end were
 they
actually wicked people?

Even a neighbor recently joked that the only way the Church to survive for
so long was that it is skilled in corruption, cover-ups and greed. !!

Thanks for the comments,
- Mark

At 05:25 PM 8/29/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>> "Don't be silly.  Of course mathematicians masturbate.  Perhaps more than
>> most.  Much more"
>>              Herbert Marcuse
>>
>This message is morally wrong.        Sz. Zoli
>

And physically exhausting, too.  Hence, your physical and mental being are
in perfect symmetry.

Joe Szalai

"So-called professional mathematicians have, in their reliance on the
relative incapacity of the rest of mankind, acquired for themselves a
reputation for profundity very similar to the reputation for sanctity
possessed by theologians."
           G. C. Lichtenberg

Mark Humphreys, At 10:14 AM 8/30/96 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Even a neighbor recently joked that the only way the Church to survive for
>so long was that it is skilled in corruption, cover-ups and greed. !!
>
Interesting you should comment on this Mark.  Having read only some of this
thread (while getting caught up on the list), the movie Monsigneur has
popped to mind on several occassions.  The movie was based on the formation
of the Roman Catholic Church.  Although it was dramatized, enough of the
facts were utilized, that the Vatican banned it's release in Italy.  (The
movie is at least 10 years old - and it is to this day still banned).  I
would encourage all of you heavily involved in this topic to view it.  Most
especially Peter ought to benefit from some of the facts that were revealed
in explicit details - putting it mildly...
Regards
Aniko
BTW - it's nice to read such level headed posts as yours.

No kiddin' sweetie!Say,are you requesting,or ordering me back
to the Forum?By the way,how do you know,that I'm a Forum
contributor?Are you one of this lists' "mind police sturmstaffels",
who carefully watching the going ons on the Forum?
Or are you one of this lists' parrots,faithfully repeating what you hear?
Didn't all the Forums' provocators,denouncers,accusers originated from this
list?Didn't all the crossposters contributing to this list?Correct me,if I'm
wrong:did I read some crossposting report (again) in yesterdays' "anti-Hungary"
about some Forum writers' letter?To make it easy for you,it's about Hungarys'
hungarian population in the year of 1910,supposedly being 51%,and not
66%,what a Forum writer reported.(Wow,Mr.Meciar and Mr.Funar can you
hear this?How about a medal for this "hungarian" historian?)Also correct me,
if I'm wrong:did I detect some threat against Mr.Szekely?But threatening
a person,or persons is not a strange metter in this list.And finally let me
tell you something:I'm not going to ask your or anybodys' permission to
express my displeasure,or opinion about any metter.Have I made myself
clear?
The Rambo Arpi.

Sam to me:

> Let me be the first to assure you -- you aren't right. You're not even
> close. If I might offer some career advice to you, I strongly urge you not
> to air these views in public, especially around the office. It's one thing
> to pump this out over an Internet full of strangers. You do it in front of
> the people you work with and it will bring you major trouble in the most
> immediate way.
> Sam Stowe
                                                                    (Sz.Z.)

There have been two pieces of interesting news in the last two days
provided by the BLA news service. Both articles dealt with the infamous
HungarHotels fiasco. But, for those who have not been following Hungarian
news closely, let me give you a bit of a background.

        In December 1994 at last there was a buyer for a chain of Hungarian
state-owned hotels, fourteen in all. Out of these fourteen there was only
one which was profitable and didn't need a lot of investment, the Forum. The
others were hotels which needed serious refurbishing and were situated in
provincial towns. The buyer was an American firm. In the last minute, Gyula
Horn, in a surprise move, vetoed the almost already done deal, saying that
the hotel chain was worth billions more than the American company was ready
to pay. The reverberations at home and abroad were instantenous: the head of
the agency in charge of privatization was let go, the finance minister
resigned, and the reaction of foreign financial circles was extremely
negative. This was the deep point of the Horn government's mishandled affairs.

        Some unfounded rumors circulated for a while about fabulous new
offers: 200 billion (more than five times the original offer) by an Italian
company and 160 million by the Swiss company. The Hungarian media dutifully
noted these unbelievable figures and rumors until it became quite obvious
that there was no one who was really interested in buying the hotel chain.
That was more than a year and a half ago.

        About a week ago there was news on the hotel front: there is a new
buyer and the price is higher than it was a year and a half ago. Well,
yesterday's *Vilaggazdasag,* a very good daily economic paper, explained the
real story. Because of the different exchange rates (today the forint is
worth less than then), because of different interest rates, and because of
the size of the share, the actual amount of money received for the hotel
chain is 52% less than it would have been in December 1994!!

        Obviously other papers also commented on these figures and today's
the spokesman for the Prime Minister's Office felt the need to explain the
*real sitaution*: in fact, the Vilaggazdasag's assessment is inaccurate, the
decision not to sell was an excellent decision. And here it is why:

>Kiss Elemer arrol is beszamolt, hogy a kormany szerint helyes volt a
>HungarHotels privatizaciojanak leallitasarol szolo tavalyi
>kormanydontes. Az elmult evben ugyanis csak 3,8 milliard forint
>bevetelhez lehetett volna jutni, mig a szallodalanc mostani eladasa
>15,6 milliardot eredmenyezett.

[In brief: the decision to stop the privatization of HungaryHotels was the
right decision because last year one would have been able to receive only an
income of 3.8 billion forints, while the hotel chain's sale now resulted in
15.6 billion forints.]

        Anyone who can understand this and can explain it to me will have my
admiration and gratitude.

        Eva Balogh

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic. Join us for an afternoon of fun, food and music. 

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 pm
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metro accessible, 
                                        next to the Hungarian Embassy)

For further information you can contact us at
email: 
www:   http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves 
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital es zene.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00  
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metroval elerheto, a magyar
                                      nagykovetseg kozeleben)

Tovabbi informacioert fordulj hozzank: 
email:  
www:    http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/	
**********************************************************************

.

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic. Join us for an afternoon of fun, food and music.

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 pm
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metro accessible,
                                        next to the Hungarian Embassy)

For further information you can contact us at
email: 
www:   http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital es zene.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metroval elerheto, a magyar
                                      nagykovetseg kozeleben)

Tovabbi informacioert fordulj hozzank:
email:  
www:    http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/
**********************************************************************

.

At 06:34 PM 8/29/96 -0400, Burian wrote:

>Re the obvious demoralization of Hungarians in not even being up to
>celebrating the 1100th anniversary . . .
>
>Here's a terrible generalization from an outsider: but I feel the
>Hungarians are demoralized because they overcame fascism and communism to
>reach freedom (the capitalist version), and look what they've got.

        I wish I could agree with you about the above, but I can't. As it
had been pointed out many, many times in the American media as well as in
the Hungarian one, one-party dictatorship fell in the Soviet Union and in
Eastern Europe not for political reasons but for economic ones. As many
political scientists, poll takers, political observers in general, pointed
out the Hungarian people were ready for democracy/capitalism not because
they had a burning desire to be free but because they wanted to live better.
And instead, the great majority lives worse.

        As for overcoming of fascism and communism--well, they may not
consider themselves fascists or communists, but they are not democrats
either. Forty some years of soft dictatorship made the Hungarian population
quite incapable of thinking in democratic terms. As for the current
political leadership, the old reflexes are strong. Laszlo Lengyel, not one
of my favorite political observers, noted with certain wit that Gyula Horn
most likely in his dreams is at the meetings of the Politburo! And indeed,
his reaction are the old undemocratic reflexes. The price of bread is
creeping up because of market forces--no problem, "we will not allow that,"
says Gyula Horn. In many big and small ways you can detect these old
reflexes. As for the other parties: you all know what I think of the
Smallholders, the Christian Democrats and the MDF. They also lack democratic
convictions. I am only guessing but I don't think that there are more than
about 10 percent of the adult population who understands what democracy is.
Here are a few statistics (December 1994) 87 percent of the population
doesn't think that freedom of the press or freedom of expression is
important!! And these freedoms are the cornerstones of democracy. Since then
in a new opinion poll (late 1995) only 6 percent of the population thought
that the freedom of press and freedom of expression were important. And if
that is the case, surely, they are not yearning for "freedom" in quotation
marks!

>It
>looks like Arpad's taken his last ride, unless the "H" in Hungary can come
>to stand for Humanism.

        Arpad reminds me that in the Magyar Narancs there was an excellent
historical treatise on the three dates: 896, 1896, and 1996. Those of you
who haven't read it should. The author is historian Miklos Szabo. He points
out that the year 1000, that is the official date of the beginnings of
Christian Hungary, is an equally important date in the history of the
nation. If 896 marked the arrival in Europe, Geza's and St. Stephen's
decision to turn to Christianity ensured the nation's survival. I am curious
what will happen in the year 2000, which will mark the millennium of that
momentous historical event. I hope it will not be treated as the Catholic
festivity only but an important national holiday!

        Eva Balogh

>One more thing. Check the Web. It is very possible that the national
>vizsla club (or komondor, puli club) has a webpage with full of information.
>Our national club has a wonderful webpage. More and more people who come to
>buy a puppy from me come with printouts on the basset from the Internet. It
>is heartwarming.

i too found my dog from info on the web. actually, what i tried to find was
a komondor, but there are no komondor breeder webpages. so i looked for
info on a dog with a similar temperament, and ended up with a bouvier.
great dog!

donno about vizslas. i have had several friends with one, both in hungary
and here. all of them were very sweet-natured, energetic... and quite
stupid. you can kinda train them but by nature they are hunting dogs and
highstrung... they will obsessively catch and retrieve balls for hours but
ain't too good at anything else. except licking you into severe dampness.
as i said, sweet-natured.

however, medium sized, short-haired, very friendly and good with children.

me, i like a dog with a more... ahm... serious nature. an intelligent
companion. as far as hungarian breeds, i prefer the working dogs: komondor
and kuvasz. with the puli a close second as it has a tendency to go
overboard in the barking department.

you may have to spend some time training them as all intelligent dogs need
training... but the effort is well worth it.

regards
ef

--------------------------------
              NWHQ
   http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/

>Re: Even a neighbor recently joked that the only way the Church could survive
>for so long was that it is skilled in corruption, cover-ups and greed...

Aniko:

Thank you for the recommendation of the movie "Monsigneur."  Now that you men-
tion it, I did hear about it, but it was so hushed and no one talks about it.
I completely forgot about it. Thanks.

Last year there was also an Italian movie that came out regarding the tradition
of the choir castratti in the Church.  Unfortunately, I can't think of the name
at this moment. I find the castratti an interesting piece of recent Church his-
tory when you think about the Church's opposition to others who advocate family
 planning and to those who they say are  'fooling with nature.'

Thanks for your constructive contribution.
- Mark

It is interesting how selectively some people quote when it suits them and
their agenda.

On Wed Aug 28 10:30:37 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #773 
wrote:

>Your prose demonstrates profound taste and impeccable breeding.  It also
>shows that you're homophobic.  But take heart.  A lot of Hungarians still
>are.  Not as many as I would have thought just a couple of years ago, but
>still...

No quote of what I said on the topic.  I actually protested the militant
style of the homosexuals on this list.  I don't care if they think that they
are normal.  What bothers me is when they sound like being heterosexual is an
aberration.

>
>Your homophobia seems to be of the "sexual apartheid" variety.

Joe, would you mind explaining what that means?

<Hence,
>homosexual topics are not 'real' Hungarian topics.  Oh sure, it can be
>mentioned once in a blue moon, but then it should be ghettoized and shoved
>off into its own little corner somewhere.
>

Again, I don't object to anyone discussing homosexuality.  Or dog breeding.
 Or anything else, briefly or in passing, as a way of exchanging information
of favorite pastimes or activities.  But a prolonged discussion of any topic
without Hungarian context wastes the time of those who read the list because
of its purported topic.  Hungary.

>Needless to say, I don't subscribe to your fears.  Or your breeding!!!
>
>Joe Szalai

You misunderstand, Joe.  It's not fear.  Just plain disgust.

Then there is Mark, who quotes me quoting him, but omitting the part of his
message that I found objectionable:

 on Wed Aug 28 10:37:00 EDT 1996:

> >denly??  God sure must hate him!> >
> >- Mark>

>Is the sarcastic remark "God sure must hate him" gutter language?  Grow
>     up... and expand your vocabulary!  If you are so easily offended, maybe
>     you should just get off the list yourself!
>

But our dear Mark should have quoted himself fully thusly:

(Responding to Szekely Zoli)

>What does AIDS and death have to do with anything??  Are you immortal?  If
your
>good made AIDS to destroy gays, he sure is a faszfej.  Your god is such an
ass
>he has kill numerous babies and young mothers.  He has also killed social
>workers, doctors, nurses...  When people in your family die, we will all
wonder
>what kinds of sinning monsters they were to let themselves get sick.
>
>Zoli: Here's another question:  Why did Pope John-Paul I die so young and
sud-
>denly??  God sure must hate him!
>
>- Mark>

Well, maybe he has some decency and shame left and didn't want to acknowledge
that he had called God a "dickhead".

But wait!  Here he goes again:

>Stop the charade!  I sent many civilized messages and responded to some
fairly
>rude comments.  Faszfej and other crude words I have learned from your
Hungary
>list!

Poor, innocent Mark!  Corrupted by Hungarians!  Just can't help blaspheming.
>
>And faszfej is a very suitable word for a god that indiscriminantly sends a
>horrid, vile disease to kill all sorts of people. What do you call that sort
of
>god, 'Holy, loving Father?'
>
>I am not a newcomer. I've read this list in silence for months am tired of
>reading garbage from many on this list w/o responding!

OK, he has been just a lurker.  Is that supposed to be an excuse?

>Often gutter language
>is suitable for the gutter thoughts of others.  It's a language they can
>understand.

In this case, it's his own gutter thoughts.

>I am defending a group of people often walked upon by others in the name of
a
>god. Don't you dare call that distasteful and indecent. More often than not,
>I have been polite, answered questions with concrete details and examples.

Yeah, sure.

Ferenc

In this text, before having further recourse to it, I am introducing the
term "fascism" both in general and more specifically in the Slovak context.

The image of a fascist in usually associated with a caricature of a
brutal man in a brown uniform, black high boots and a truncheon. This
image belongs to other times when the fascists did not have to keep
discrete about their nature. Today, a fascist is more likely to wear
a nice cravate and to operate from his keyboard. Rare are fascists
who display their adherence to a fascist ideology openly.

Historically, the fascism is a reactionary movement in the epoch after
the WWI. In its primitive form, it was based on rejection of social
theories whose fundaments were resumed in "The Social Contract" by
Jean-Jacques Rousseau of Geneva. These social theories are sometimes
called "Modernisme" because they are opposing the old social theories
established since Niccolo Machiavelli.

The response to the Rousseau, to the Declaration des droits de l'homme
et du citoyen after the Frech Revolution, to the US Declaration of
Independence, US Constitution, by Hegel, Feuerbach, Marx, Nietzsche,
and many others, resulted in an intellectual "bouillon" which brought
Marxism, classical socialism, national socialism and fascism, communism,
but also modern liberalism, modern conservativism and many forms of
modern social contracts and capitalist participatory democracy.

What the fascists are reacting against in particular are the social
theories of the French Revolution and the principles declared in forms
of slogans:

Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.

Liberte - freedom of thinking, freedom of speech and of opinion,
no oppressive government intervention in the daily lives of the
citizen, no illicit searches and seizures, secret of communication,
guarantees of the privacy, no intimidation, violence, prosecution or
arrest for opposants, and where the majority rules but cannot
terrorise the minority which retains unalienable rights.
The contemporary Slovak tragedy connotation is obvious.

Egalite - in the sense of civic equality, while people differ, they
all should stand equal in the eyes of the law and to have the same
rights, the same obligations and the same chances for all purposes
for all citizen.

To put it into Slovak context, all the people have to pay the same
taxes if they realise the same revenue. Or, all the people have to
get equal chance in a public action, such as voucher privatisation.
Or, noone is above the law and noone may stay impunished because his
criminal deed is overriden by his political affiliation. Or, simply
that the laws and the Constitution will be respected by the government.

Fraternite - that all the people are a part of humanity that has to
be respected and cherished at a level above the law.

In the Slovak context, that means the political culture (or the lack
thereof), hat noone will be attacked, slandered, badmouthed because
of his racial, national or political appartenance (real of supposed).
That the opposition will not be devil-painted, the President not
scapegoated and that the opposants not beaten. That the hate propaganda
will not get support in State-run newspapers, TV, and radio. Of course
it means much, much more... elsewhere.

The support of fascism comes primarily from desperate people, whose
anxiety facing the chaos (that characterises a democratic society),
economic anxiety, social anxiety, existential frustration, but very
often intellectual and moral deficiency, are throwing into the maelstrom
of hate philosophy. Inherent inefficiency of a democratically organised
society in their perception will be hiding the auto-corrective features
and these people, desoriented, will prefer a strong hand to protect
them from the freedom, offering them a parallel reality with no need
to think.

"Fascism is reaction," said Mussolini. In Italy, fascists have proudly
called themselfs by this name. In Spain, the fascism lacked the national
and racial connotation, but this has been very developed in the German
fascism, called nazism for its national orientation and its national-
socialist roots, nationalism, racism and racialism that eventually
brought the holocaust, the most horrible tragedy the humanity ever
experienced.

While not all nationalist movements are fascist, in Slovakia, the clero-
fascist movement was among the strongest pronounced ones in Europe. For
the Catholic hierarchy, embracing the fascism was the mean to get back
the control of the social values after the secular Czech influence on
the society. In Slovakia, the racialist fascism brought the "Jewish
Decrees" and eventually the deportations. Yet there were many brave
individual Catholic priests who spoke out and acted against the
deportation of Jews.

Vatican also protested: after the article from the SME daily
of 30 August 1996, "Vatikan a  vojnova republika" by Marian Lesko,
when in october 1941 the Slovak President Mgr. Tiso said in Povazska
Bystrica that "social principles of Pope Encyclics and the principles
of the national socialism are identical... only those who did not
compare them may pretend the contrary", the Pius XII revoked Tiso from
the "Prelati Domestici" list. Also in 1941, Vatican protested against
the racial laws. In March 1942, Mgr Burzio was asked to intervene to
stop the transportations. His reply: I am not sure whether a [diplomatic]
intervention can stop ... fools. And there are two fools: Tuka, who
ordered it, and Tiso, a priest, who lets him do.   In Fall 1944, when
Vatican protested against the terror against civilians, Tiso answered
that "Czechs and Jews have who for five years lived well, joined the
rebels". The article (in Slovak) can be found at URL
http://savba.savba.sk/logos/news/sme/data/index300896.html#39


After the war, an important part of the fascist Slovak emigration went
to Canada. They continue to be active, promoting extreme nationalism,
racial and national hate. Their views are naive and understanding of
the current Slovak issues frozen somewhere at the post-war level.

After the split of Czechoslovakia, Slovak fascists abroad are known for
their points of view supporting the government minority policy and some are
loudly welcoming restrictions of the civic freedom in today's Slovakia,
run by a red-brown nationalist coalition.

Many people are calling the their publication, Kanadsky Slovak, to be
nationalist and extremist. They also have a mailing list Slovak-L (on the
listserv of the University of Buffalo, NY), gatewayed to USENET newsgroups
as bit.listserv.slovak-l. Listowner of Slovak-L maling list, Mr. Frajkor,
is an Associate Professor at the University of Carleton, Ottawa, member of
the editorial board of the Kanadsky Slovak.



What are the principal characteristics of the contemporary Slovak fascism?


Extreme nationalism. Historical mission that comes from the big history
that Slovaks did not have. Continuity with the Slovak State 1939-45 and
with Great Moravia, defunct a thousand years ago.

Violence and threat of violence, racket, State-organised crime, all that
as means to impose the views on others and to strenghten the central
power.

Reliance on a leader, autocratic form of government, cult of personality
of a charismatic Fuhrer.

Corporatism and creation of a "national capitalogenous layer of loyal
entrepreneurs" (authentical expression). Privatisation of the State
property for symbolic amounts into hands of a few hundred privileged,
composed of members of the former communist ruling class, apparatchiks
and StB agents.

Abandon of any ideology in drive to grab and keep the power. Random
walking political "strategy", unlimited opportunism. No values in
politics, except the Law of the Stronger.

Continuing to feed the "regulated hate" among the population and
maintaining the state of "revolution psychosis", conspiration theories,
deshumanisation of the enemy (Magyars, Czechs, Jews, the President,
opposition, intellectuals...)  to eventual scapegoating and witch hunts.

The self image of being a superior race or nation is clearly present
with one interesting Slovak specificity, "poor little us", whining about
the past injustices and thousand-year oppression.

Adoration of symbols: bonfires, shepherd instruments (valaska), Devin hill,
etc., romantism a la 19th century.

Reaction against the values of liberalism and Western democracy.



On the individual level, a Slovak fascist is characterised, in addition
to the above above picture:


Irrational, emotional adoration of the Nation. "Uncomfortable" facts
are ignored and the picture of parallel reality interpolated from the
"positive" facts. There also are "our facts" and "their facts", to be
ignored and fought against. "Our facts" don't even have to be facts,
hearsay is accepted.

Ignorance outweighted by arrogance, self-sufficiency, hostility to the
rationality.

Absence of scruples, ethics, replaced by tribal dialectics. A lie is not
a lie, a crime is not a crime, if committed in the interest of the Nation.
The person who dares to disagree or even to think cannot be of our
magnificent tribe.

Fear of discussion. Discussion means the need look for facts and need
to think, staying on the level of emotional hatred being easier.



The various concrete expressions of the above symptomes will be described
on the Slovak-L list. In order to prevent Mr. Frajkor from censuring them,
they will be crossposted also to soc.culture.czecho-slovak .


Roman Kanala


(No copyright. Feel free to use where appropriate. Sorry for my poor English.)

Karen Dunn Skinner > wrote:

>In article >, =?iso-8859-
>1?q?Andrew_R=F3zsa?= > writes
>>All this discussion about dogs rekindled a long desire of mine to get
>>a Hungarian dog.
I agree with Karen that the Vizsla is the easiest Hungarian dog to
live with. In fact I am looking for one. If you know a breeder or
source please write me.
As for the puli it smells if it gets wet. Can you live with that?
The kuvasz is a great choice on an acrage. They are huge, but
gracious. Definitely an outdoor type.
Eva
Eva Kende B.Sc. author of "Eva's Hungarian Kitchen".

I think Rambo made himself absolutely clear on all "metters".

Gabor D. Farkas

Dear Roman Kanala,

Thank you for your eloquent posting of August 30, 1996. It is extremely
clear the dilution  Mr. Frajkor is suffering of.

I am personally in process of locating members of the board of trusties
at University of Carleton, Ottawa. NAZI orientations like his are to be
isolated, curtailed and expelled from the society. It is hard for me to
believe that a young generation could end up studding in a place as the
University of Carleton under Mr. Frajkor's guidance.


A. Albu

In article >,
 says...
>At 11:56 PM 8/28/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak, the ex-soldier, wrote:
>>I am taking the role of a "political officer" (i.e. comissar) from recent
>>history.  And I am speaking from personal observation.  Sorry, Eva, in
>>this I am more knowledgeable than you.  But as I said before, you can be
>>excused for not knowing.  You probably didn't serve in a communist army.

>        You don't get it, do you? You took as your example a Soviet-type
>army, let's say in the 1980s, and assumed that the Hungarian Red Army in
>1919 was identical to the one you served in. This is wrong. Neither the
>economic, political, or military structures of the Hungarian Soviet
>Republic (however short-lived it was) were identical to the later Soviet
>type which had gone through a certain evolution. In fact, the Hungarian
>variety of communism of 1919 differed considerably from the contemporary
>Russian model because Bela Kun didn't have Lenin's tactical skills and
>took a more radical path to "instant communism."
>        Thus, we still don't know Lukacs's exact role, *on the basis of the
>documents provided,* by Csaba Zoltani.

Perhaps you're the one who doesn't get it. Political commissars always
had the last word over field commanders since the earliest days of the
Soviet armed forces (and let's NOT say in the 1980s!). Summary executions
of soldiers and officers as traitors, enemies of the revolution, etc,
by these commissars were frequent. Lukacs would presumably have had
some idea about this by 1919.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

At 04:45 PM 8/30/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak > wrote:

<snip>
>No quote of what I said on the topic.  I actually protested the militant
>style of the homosexuals on this list.  I don't care if they think that they
>are normal.  What bothers me is when they sound like being heterosexual is an
>aberration.

Relax, Ferenc.  Being heterosexual is not an aberration.  It is not a
disease.  And, trust me, it's not contagious.  As with any sexual
orientation, you can only 'catch' your own.

>>Your homophobia seems to be of the "sexual apartheid" variety.
>
>Joe, would you mind explaining what that means?

Sure.  Think of South Africa several years ago.  Think of being black.  Now,
think of the world.  Imagine you're gay.  Get it?

>Again, I don't object to anyone discussing homosexuality.  Or dog breeding.
> Or anything else, briefly or in passing, as a way of exchanging information
>of favorite pastimes or activities.  But a prolonged discussion of any topic
>without Hungarian context wastes the time of those who read the list because
>of its purported topic.  Hungary.

You'd have a really strong point here if I saw dozens of postings sharing
your sentiments.  I've only seen a couple.  And, as for Hungarian context,
all I can say is that I find the comments, on the topic of homosexuality,
of people with an Hungarian background, in English, interesting.  Don't you?

>You misunderstand, Joe.  It's not fear.  Just plain disgust.

Have you sought professional help?

Joe Szalai

"Let me look at the foulness and ugliness of my body. Let me see myself as
an ulcerous sore running with every horrible and disgusting poison."
              Saint Ignatius of Loyola

On Thu Aug 29 11:17:30 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #774, Eva Balogh, our own Renaissance
scholar said:

>At 11:56 PM 8/28/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak, the ex-soldier, wrote:
>
>>I am taking the role of a "political officer" (i.e. comissar) from recent
>>history.  And I am speaking from personal observation.  Sorry, Eva, in this
I
>>am more knowledgeable than you.  But as I said before, you can be excused
for
>>not knowing.  You probably didn't serve in a communist army.

>        You don't get it, do you? You took as your example a Soviet-type
>army, let's say in the 1980s, and assumed that the Hungarian Red Army in
>1919 was identical to the one you served in. This is wrong.

You just can't stand it when someone knows something you don't, can you?
 When you paint yourself into a corner, you don't admit that you are wrong,
you obfuscate, change the subject, put words into the other person's mouth,
do just about anything not to appear a loser in an argument.  This is very
immature and does little to buttress your reputation as a person.

You know I didn't say that the two red armies were "identical".  I tried to
help you out by explaining the nature of the role of political officers (or
"comissars") in a communist army.  That nature was, by and large, common to
all communist forces at all times.  Remember, the comissars were the Party's
representatives in the armed forces, just as the Party secretaries
represented the Party in civilian organizations.  And, as you know full well,
in a communist society the Party is the ultimate authority.


>Neither the
>economic, political, or military structures of the Hungarian Soviet Republic
>(however short-lived it was) were identical to the later Soviet type which
>had gone through a certain evolution.

           <snip>
>
>        Eva Balogh

See above.  And please, don't feel insulted if someone corrects you.  No one
can know everything.  You can profit by listening as well as by talking.

Ferenc

> Mark Humpreys:(Aug 29 16:29:34 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #774)
>
>(PLEASE SEE BELOW FOR MY CIVIL AND CALM RESPONSE.)


           <snip>

>Ferenc was funny yesterday.  He used a curse word I used
>(which is a very appropriate label for an indiscriminate
>spreader of a ghastly disease by someone <god or whatever
>in an ex-tremely inept way) as a pretense to shut me up.
>Mark

Mark,

Since you are now trying to be civil and calm, I have decided to put you on
probation and not to use the PageDown button.  But you must promise
henceforth to be truthful as well.  I mean your statement above, indicating
that I used a "curse word" is, how shall I put it, is veracity-challenged.  I
did not "use" the word.  I quoted yours.

In HUNGARY #771 you said:

>What does AIDS and death have to do with anything??  Are you immortal?  If
your
>good made AIDS to destroy gays, he sure is a faszfej.  Your god is such an
ass
>he has kill numerous babies and young mothers.  He has also killed social
>workers, doctors, nurses...

Good luck,

Ferenc

Stowewrite on Thu Aug 29 03:54:26 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #774 to Sz. Zoli:
>>
>>5. It is just a humble trial to interpret a text. Maybe I am not
>>   right. Anybody has a chance to come up with his/her own
>>   interpretation. But being unfair should not be a guarantee for
>>   acceptance.
>>                                                         Sz. Zoli
>>
>>
>Let me be the first to assure you -- you aren't right. You're not even
>close. If I might offer some career advice to you, I strongly urge you not
>to air these views in public, especially around the office. It's one thing
>to pump this out over an Internet full of strangers. You do it in front of
>the people you work with and it will bring you major trouble in the most
>immediate way.
>Sam Stowe

Now, why does this "career advice" look so familiar to me?  Is it only my
imagination, or have the letters NPA suddenly, mysteriously flash in my mind?
Maybe Sam can explain...

Since when your name is "Marina"?And why do you have to
put your nose in to any matters?And why don't you stick to
your profession,like sniffing after people?
The Rambo Arpi.

Dear HUNGARY readers,

Mark Humphreys wrote:

>(I learned faszfej just recently from that nice conservative gentleman who had
>the posting re: faszfejek and szabadmadarok...  That posting was flipped a num
-
>ber of times on the List. Why was nothing said then?  He stated it maliciously
,
>I stated it in a sarcastic case argument: " If a god WOULD do this, He seems
>like a f--fej."  Pls don't convolute and change that. I'll say "pooh-pooh
>bottom" next time.

Well, I have the feeling, that 'nice conservative gentleman' is either me or if
 not,
I am still responsible for the appearance of 'f..j' on this list.I do not
 remember
what was the subject heading of my post, but I used that word first. Mark is
 right
it should not have been used in my post either. I am sorry being rude. I was
 angry and upset. I was simple fed up to listen to how anti...... or ....phob
 and ...ist (substitute in the usual expressions) are the Hungarians.

J.Zs