>
> >2. That in Hungary inspite the totalitarian conditions
> >   there were positive developments; brainwashing was
> >   not particilarily successful and was given up
> >   gradually.
>
>
>         Compared to what?  As Eva Balogh stated, Eastern Europe continued to
> decline in direct comparison to its Western European neighbors.  Sort of
> like putting money into a low yield bank account when all your friends
> are making a killing on the stock market.
>
>


I don't quite understand this response to the brainwashing
point.  Low yield sometimes is better, than a collapse on the
stock market   However this is not an apt example and I am
a grudging defender of the said regime, I did not claim it's
superiority, all I maintained, that it had good points/achievements,
just as capitalism did, however, we should be in the business of
looking for much more satisfactory alternatives.

Eva Durant

>
> Almost perfect, if you add to this that collectivisation is not really
> possible by democratic way than you can have an idea why ML fails. If
> you have different opinion (and I bet you do :-)), tell me how to nationalize
> my fictive factories if I do not want to sell them. No, don't tell me
> that I will understand and see the greater good, because I am a bad 'burzsuj'
>

You'd get compensation if you prove your need for it, if this
was the policy accepted democratically.  People who own
factories represent a very small minority indeed.
Much smaller, than say the unemployed or those not earning
enough at the moment to live decently.  If the factory
owners come together to solve the problems of this
other troublesome minority (majority in a lot of places),
than fair enough, I don't think anyone will vote for
taking over their factories.


> >2. That in Hungary inspite the totalitarian conditions
> >   there were positive developments; brainwashing was
> >   not particilarily successful and was given up
> >   gradually.
>
> Hum, hum, well, in your case it was quite successful. (Just kidding! :-))
>
> Janos

Interestingly, if I'd gained and announced my political ideas in those
days of "proper brainwashing"  I would have been in as much,
if not more trouble, than any retrograde element...

Eva Durant

At 22:17 02/04/96 -0500, Joe Szalai answered with this riposte:
>At 06:11 AM 4/2/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>
>>Since we have already thoroughly aired that topic, how about another
>>scintillating matter for discussion?
>>
>>How about the question of whether or not you are a Socialist?
>
>Yea!  How about a full-blown show trial?
>
>I don't think it would work because most people have already made up their
mind.
>
>Joe Szalai

Hi, Joe!

No, I am a libertarian right-winger, remember? Show trials were a tool of
those non-Marxist-Leninists who held political power in Russia in the 30's,
40's, and 50's. But, if you are a Socialist (and I seem to recall that you
acknowledged that some time ago on the List) why not admit to it? You're not
going to get any more of a hard time than you do already, because, as you
say, most people seem to have made up their minds anyhow. I just get a
chuckle out of the thought that you decry the evil capitalist system, while
you are being supported by that same system (and very comfortably, too, I
would think). Doesn't that seem the least little bit contradictory to you?

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
>
>

At 22:17 02/04/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 03:03 AM 4/2/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:
>
>>Having lived trough both, take my word this is better. Also, the capitalist
>>is smart. He is not going to fire or not promote someone if that someone
>>contributes to the bottom line, just because he or she does not participate
>>in those seminars. Please, this would be even against the ML dogma: the
>>capitalist is squeezing the profits only, nothing else matters.
>
>Nothing else matters?  Thank you!  That's exactly the problem with
>capitalism.  You are expected to contribute to the bottom line and then you
>die.  The simplicity of this system is beautiful.
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe, Joe, Joe . . .

That is your interpretation. Capitalism is not the be-all-and-the-end-all.
It is a tool for the efficient production and distribution of goods, giving
the producers and consumers of goods the maximum possible opportunity for
selling and buying - the law of supply and demand. The moral framework is
provided by religious and cultural beliefs. If they are lost, the capitalist
system itself seems empty and without meaning - in your phrase,
"you...contribute to the bottom line and then you die." But that may be your
own opinion and not necessarily shared by others who still retain the
moral/religious framework which makes life more meaningful.

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 




>
>

I'm just curious. If you want a critical point of view
here, in the West, how will you get it?
Here in the UK, unless you read the odd article in the
"quality" press, or stay up to watch a "serious" programme
ona "minority interest" channel, you have no way of
knowing how much arms were sold to Iraq, how much
profits are made from the arms trade to China AND Taiwan,
the concentration of wealth in smaller an smaller numbers
of hands, and the total bankrupcy of the system in ideas
for the future (etc, etc)  So the average person is
continuously contaminated with the idea, that the system
is the only alternative and is impossible to change.
No wonder nobody takes democracy and freedom seriously
anywhere, except in the places, where there is obvious,
direct oppression.  (But that is ok, if they friends,
e.g. Saudi Arabia... the Free World is the Free World,
isn't it...)

Eva Durant

>
> Eva Balogh wrote at some length about her disagreement with Eva Durant
> about conditions under the Kadar regime.  I have not been following all
> the discussion, but my impression of the impact of, let us say, agit-
> prop, on the older generation, and even some of the younger ones, is
> pretty much as Eva Balogh sees it.  The view that older Hungarians in
> general have of the world bears only the faintest resemblance to the view
> in "normal" countries.
>         Part of this isno doubt due to Hungary's isolation during the Com-
> mie period, but much of it must I think be laid at the door of the complete-
> ly distorted picture presented by the regime.  Even Western sources like
> RFE and VOA had, apparently, little impact on the "cognitive map" of
> Hungarians.  What they seem to know is that the West is rich, and somehow
> "democratic," but most have no inkling what either of these terms actually
> means, and they have even less as to how we got that way.
>         An old, possibly apochryphal, Hungarian saying has it that "money is
> a gift from God to spent for pleasure."  Such a vision of the world is hard-
> ly conducive to becoming either rich *or* democratic,and the Kadar regime
> did liitle, if anything, to help.
>
> Udv.,
> Be'la

Well, Mexico and and loads of other countries
in the "Free World" have citizens who are ready to
die to get into the US.  Thousands dye via
their own despots - see Indonesia - I hope you
are as understanding for their plight as you are for
the citizens of oppressed people in the few regimes
that still claim to be linked with marxist ideas.

Please also note: consumer choice is meaningless
for millions of unemployed and poor people,
and  let me surprise you, they do not own houses
or cars. Even in the US.
If all people would be paid in proportion to the
amount and quality of work that they do, this
would be paradise indeed. If you think they are,
your world is far removed from this planet called Earth.

Eva Durant


>
> Ms Balogh is right. People have voted with their feet and the results are
> very clear.
> How many Western people died trying to jump the Berlin Wall to get into
> East Berlin?
> How many more thousands of people does Ms Durant need to see getting
> killed before she believes that people behind the Iron Curtain were there
> involuntarily?
> What kind of availabilty of consumer goods did  the people  enjoy?
> How many people could afford to buy a car, a house, an extra overcoat
> under the good old regime?
> It is human nature to want to be rewarded (paid) in proportion to the
> amount and quality of work that one does. Not just according to needs.
>
>                                                                 J Hernadi

>
> Having lived trough both, take my word this is better. Also, the capitalist
> is smart. He is not going to fire or not promote someone if that someone
> contributes to the bottom line, just because he or she does not participate
> in those seminars. Please, this would be even against the ML dogma: the
> capitalist is squeezing the profits only, nothing else matters.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas

Well, I only lived through some university philosophy etc.
seminars in the 70s Hungary, but my memory of them is far
more pleasant, than of the one I had to go to when I was
unemployed in the UK, and was told, that it is my fault
if I have no job, even if the number of unemployed were
hundred times of the number of jobs in the area.

Anecdote: when we lived in Hungary (80s), my husband due to lack
of Hungarian language skills, ended up as "bekacsosz" (river
warden) for the local coop.   In 1987 all such employees -
mostly semi-retired/handicapped old people except the odd
mancunian, were called to a meeting. The boss said:
"Comrades, we have to apply from now  capitalist
methods of production. You are all fired!"



Eva Durant

-cut-
> totally amazed that, for example, a doctor friend seemed to be totally
> incapable of understanding that (1) the Kadar regime didn't have any
> legitimacy whatsoever; (2) it was a country where there was no "rule of
-cut-

I find this incomprehension similar to Eva Balogh's, who
refuses to see, that the press is not particularily free
in the US, that some part of the population, such as the poor,
black, etc have curtailed rights, that people don't start
new parties, not because they think everything is ok, but
because it is nigh impossible without being a multimillionaire,
etc, etc...


>
>         As for RFE and VOA, sure, they were very important sources of
> information in the early periods. Before and after 1956. But later I think
> that most of the people listened to them only for the music. I remember
> reading about it in the late 60s, early 70s that teenagers's radios were
> blaring the music of one of these two stations openly, for example, at the
> beaches at Lake Balaton.
>

Bring back Radio Luxemburg, any time...




>
>         And there are other signs of material wealth as well. I went to at
> least three houses where there were personal computers.
>
>

And were in the eighties. In our village, which was considered
poor "behind God's back" there were no people without tv,
- you could get Austrian and Yugoslav programmes -
and cca every 3rd household had someone with a car. (ok,
trabant, or similar, but functional and cheap to maintain.)

again - I am not nostalgic, just stating historical facts!

Eva Durant

>
> 'Aki koran kell aranyat lel' and especially 'Addig nyujtozkodjal ameddig
> a takarod er'.
> The first is about dilligent people whose work makes him rich, while the
> second urge you not to spend more than you can afford. (It is a kind
> difficult to translate them exactly.)
>
> I guess anyone who lived  >>2 years in Hungary knows these.
>
> Janos


"Ki mint vet, ugy arat" = the harvest depends on the sowing

"Ki mint veti agyat, ugy alussza almat"
                        = making the bed hepls good dreams

(sorry, more time would provide better translation...)

Eva Durant

At 07:19 AM 4/3/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier, who unsuccessfully tries to
sweeten her right-wing views by saying that it is libertarian, wrote:

>That is your interpretation. Capitalism is not the be-all-and-the-end-all.
>It is a tool for the efficient production and distribution of goods, giving
>the producers and consumers of goods the maximum possible opportunity for
>selling and buying - the law of supply and demand. The moral framework is
>provided by religious and cultural beliefs. If they are lost, the capitalist
>system itself seems empty and without meaning - in your phrase,
>"you...contribute to the bottom line and then you die." But that may be your
>own opinion and not necessarily shared by others who still retain the
>moral/religious framework which makes life more meaningful.

Johanne.

Don't prayers usually end with an "Amen"?

My views on the economy, the meaning of life, and other stuff, are not
unique.  Henry David Thoreau (1817-62) once wrote, "But lo! men have become
the tools of their tools".  Was Thoreau a commie?

Where do libertarian right-wingers turn to for guidance and inspiration?
Who are your mentors (or should I say, tormentors?).

Joe Szalai

>                          I just get a
> chuckle out of the thought that you decry the evil capitalist system, while
> you are being supported by that same system (and very comfortably, too, I
> would think). Doesn't that seem the least little bit contradictory to you?
>
>
>

Just because you manage to survive a system, doesn't mean
that you have no moral reason to critisize it and trying
your best to change it.  Your reasoning would mean no
change ever advocated anywhere, those who couldn't survive,
couldn't have made the case afterall... Loads of vocal critics
(e.g. Csurka) did rather well under Kadar, by the way. Some
got the push to leave specially from the USSR with this
reasoning...

Eva Durant

>
> That is your interpretation. Capitalism is not the be-all-and-the-end-all.
> It is a tool for the efficient production and distribution of goods, giving
> the producers and consumers of goods the maximum possible opportunity for
> selling and buying - the law of supply and demand. The moral framework is
> provided by religious and cultural beliefs. If they are lost, the capitalist
> system itself seems empty and without meaning - in your phrase,
> "you...contribute to the bottom line and then you die." But that may be your
> own opinion and not necessarily shared by others who still retain the
> moral/religious framework which makes life more meaningful.
>

My poor brainwashed self has no idea about these religious
and cultural beliefs that are essential for capitalism to
function.  Please, Johanne, lighten me up... Can atheists
be good capitalists?  I thought christianity did not value
the material world all that much... am I confused?

Eva Durant

Janos Zsargo in connection with the old/new topic of "occupied tables." As a
background: in my piece I mentioned the case of Albert Szabo, a neo-nazi
skinhead who was not convicted on the charge of public incitement. Janos is
right that I shouldn't have just tossed out this case without explaining
what happened actually because people on this list might not be familiar
with the case. Moreover, as it is clear from Joe Szalai's answer, he himself
certainly doesn't have the foggiest idea what this case was all about and in
his usual manner he put the worst possible spin on it. I am afraid, I am
responsible for this. As Janos said:

>This has nothing to do with the public attitude or
>governing policies in Hungary and probably Eva Balogh does know it very well.
>But why she has to feed the misconceptions of a 'felnotas'!

Joe is a "felnotas," that's for sure, and I think I owe the list a better
explanation.

Albert Szabo is the head of the Hungarian skinheads, whose numbers are quite
small. His background is murky but apparently he emigrated to Australia in
1987 and returned to Hungary sometime after 1990. He apparently receives
some financial help from his family. In any case, Albert Szabo and his
followers make a habit of parading on the streets of Budapest with flags
which bear suspicious resemblance to the Nazi emblems of Germany. They also
carry posters with slogans which could be construed as antisemitic. He, by
his own admission, is a follower of the Hungarian national socialist leader,
Ferenc Sza'lasi.

Albert Szabo and his colleagues were recently acquitted because the court
didn't find sufficient reason for coming up with a guilty verdict. According
one article I read it is also possible that the prosecutor's office
submitted an indictment which was poorly written and although the court sent
it back once for more precise language, the prosecutor's office didn't make
the desired changes. In any case, as Hungarian law stands now, Albert
Szabo's case had to end in acquittal. Arpad Go:ncz, the president of the
republic, has been championing for years for legislation which would make it
easier to prosecute hate-mongers, and writings and actions against
minorities but no such legislation has been yet introduced. The fact is, as
opposed to Joe Szalai's interpretation, that Hungary is perhaps a little too
democratic. Actions and writings which in other western European countries
would be considered a crime are not in Hungary. It is true that using
symbols of either nazism/fascism or communism are forbidden but Albert Szabo
was very careful to alter the look of his symbols, slightly but enough, to
be exempt.

Given this background, I hope that it will be clear that Joe Szalai's
"interpretation" of what I said is entirely wrong.

Eva Balogh

"Ki mint veti a'gya't, u'gy alussza a'lma't"

Literally translated, it means: "(The quality of) your sleep depends on
the way you make your bed."  Figuratively, however, it implies that the
success of your endeavors depend on your (careful) preparations.

Martha

> is that all European non-socialist countries outstripped the economic growth
> of the socialist bloc.

Unfortunately, as discussed before, economic growth is
not a particularily good measure of standard of living
in general for a population.  I think growth is
probably monumental in Thailand, but...
However, I agree, that the standard of living in Hungary
was not good enough for far too many people. The comparative
ratios were probably somewhat better for Greece or Portugal,
but the question is how you compare the poverty with poverty.

I do not accept either of these options, I don't want
another totalitarian socialist, or inadequate capitalist system.
I do maintain however, that the "libertarian" version of the
first one is comparable to a povery-inclined capitalist society
without social security provisions.


>
> of Hungarians "who put their efforts" into the heroic task of building
> socialism, as we all know, that effort was rather minimal. They did put a
> lot of effort into making their own lives more pleasant, but as far as the
> state-owned workplace was concerned it wasn't exactly foremost on their
> minds. "We pretend that we work and you pretend that you pay us," as the
> well known saying went.
>

I dont think the workers of the 60s or 70s in the West
were working all that enthusiastically for their employers,
they could walk to other jobs in most places, if they wanted
to in those old, recession-less times. I worked in industry
in the 70s in the UK, and in the 80s in Hungary, and I did
not find that mystical difference. Hungarians worked as hard
as anybody, the low output was the result of poor organisation,
which was the straight consequence of the ludicrously wasteful
undemocratic, burocratic system so prevalent now everywhere...


>
>
> the educational level suffered greatly as a result. The introduction of new
> types of schools was not thought through and again the level of education in
> these so-called "szakgimnaziums" was very low.

The end of the sixties saw "szakkozepiskola" . These had given
a trade with a matriculation, so you had a chance to go to
university, but if not accepted - with the chronically
low number of places - you had a trade/skill to fall back on.
>From the seventies a second language besides Russian was
taught in most secondary schools and universities.
In the UK all kids start on French - and there are probably
no more French-speakers in the world, than Russian/slav
speakers. The problem with teaching Russian was, that most
of the time it was done badly, which is a waste of time.
(The sudden stop to it with no say in it for parents was
mostly ill-advised. There should have been a gradual change.)

I don't go into the details, for the rest, my personal
experience with friends and relations, that hungarian educational
grounding proved to be invaluable; either our kids are more
clever than the English/French/Italian/US kids, or they entered
those systems with an advantage even with the initial obsticle
of a new language in most cases.
There were black holes and bad areas, but in no way was this
unique to Hungary.

>
>         Moving on from education to medical care, again, I find the state of
> health care in Hungary in shambles today. And it didn't just happen. This is
> the result of forty years of horrendous abuse. With the introduction of
> existing socialism doctors became employees of the state. Salaries were low

we've been through this before; I compared my personal
experiences with the NHS of 80s UK, and Hungary had good as well
as bad points; comparing the facilities and standard of
care in a children's contagious deseases dept in each place,
at a provincial centre, the Hungarian was the better one,
could have been just luck/unluck. In Hungary there were a larger
range of antibiotics/contraceptive pills on offer, immensely
cheaper, than here, but I'm sure something else, probably
intensive care, is better hear - if it hasn't been closed down...


>
>         Oh, come on, Eva Durant. The US government was "pumping [borrowed
> money] into companies/corporations"? You must be joking. The US government
> spends our tax dollars on its huge bureaucracy and social services
> (especially medicaid).

Sorry: no, please check out. More goes to subsidise industry,
Building roads (oops, that is subssidising industry), buying
weapons (oops, ditto). I've seen  aprogramme: in Newt Gingrich's
district or constituency, the wast majority of funds go to serve
corporate interest, some 5 percent goes on welfare, and I
think the situation is the same elsewhere.


 And the U.S. government spends more money than its
> has but that money doesn't go to companies and corporations! This just shows
> how little you know about the U.S.
>


Perhaps someone kindly would supply us figures.


> were wrong. The mess which was created is so huge that they are no instant
> remedies, no instant experts.

You mean even bigger than the mess emerging in the UK, and Germany
and so on?


> exactly: "could happen elsewhere..."? It did happen elsewhere; that
> "elsewhere" was all in Eastern-Europe, in the former Soviet bloc. It was a
> system imposed on these countries forty odd years ago. And now, that the
> Soviet Union wasn't there to impose its will, they collapsed. In Hungary it
> had collapsed earlier: in 1956 but then the Soviet Union reimposed the
> cursed system with the help of the mighty Soviet Army.


There are a good number of regimes that would  collapse
tommorrow without the "help" of the US.   I wouldn't trust any
of our economic giants, the instability is starting to be visible,
the tension and the competition is surfacing more and more often,
one day Eva Balogh will notice some of it...  I am not
happy about it; I am worried, for the sake of the future of
my children I'd like a peaceful solution for the future,
not the terror/poverty/crime/drugs and war ridden mess,
that seems to be taking shape.


>
>         Let's not try to argue that all these successes were the results of
> the excellent education the socialist system gave to the country's young.
> Hungary was always very strong in math and in the sciences. I think we can
> come up with some rather famous names, way before the blessings of
> socialism: von Neumann might be a name to recall in this age of the computer.
>


Interesting proposition; The prewar system and teachers
doing their best in the seventies ... that is going a bit
too far. Musicians trained in the 70s by the cultural
geniuses of the 30s.  Why haven't I think of that.
I thought the UK and Germany had a few good years
before the war, but they did not do as well. Confusing.

If anything was good, that was the result of the brilliant
achievements of the pre-war Hungary. Anything bad, the
result of the bad communists. Hm.


>
>         Hmm. Most of these films had "political messages," and most of them
> were declarations against the regime and against the ideology. Of course,
> one had to read between the lines.
>


nevertheless paid for by the Kadar regime, now compare with
the present state of the arts.

>
>         Oh, yes. Books were subsidized and therefore they were inexpensive
> (mind you, the paper and binding of terrible quality). However, as you know
> very well, not everything could be printed in Hungary. I always had to take
> a few copies of Orwell's Animal Farm along for friends who were dying to
> read it. Or, Dr. Zhivago, just to mention a few.
>


And I couldn't find my favorite childhood book translated to
Hungarian from Swedish, but not to English.  It took me
months, and the help of the internet to locate another
favourite, Eric Knight's "Legy hu magadhoz", (I can't
think of the English title at the moment) a critical
appraisal of the UK in a small Scottish library, no sign of
it in any of the Manchester libraries (or bookshops).

Eva Durant

I'll be away for a week, I'll be postponing my mail,
if you think, I'll be missing something incredibly
important, mail private.
Happy egghunting and sprinkling for all!

>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: The Kadar regime ( 78 sor )
>Idopont: Tue Apr  2 12:31:23 EST 1996 HUNGARY #627
>

In Hungary#627, Eva Balogh wrote about her shopping expeditions with her
yuppie-sounding friends.  She also philosophizes about poverty in Hungary:

>         One hears time and time
>again how badly off Hungarians are. The demagogic, populist right talks
>about this in the most dramatic terms and I am sure that there are a lot of
>very poor people in Hungary.
>
How's that again?  She confirms the allegations of the "demagogic, populist
right"?  Now that's a surprise!

In the same paragraph, she tells us:

> On a
>nice Saturday afternoon my relatives and I went to do some shopping at a new
>store called Metro. Metro seems to be something like Price Club around here.
>(Mind you, I have never been in a Price Club!)

Then pray tell us, how can you draw a comparison?

Well, I HAVE been in both a Price Club and in those Hungarian discount
warehouse superstores.  I can say that they are indeed similar.  Both are
operating on the basis of high-volume, low-margin merchandising.  In a
typical
Price Club, you can buy mostly institutional-size packages of food items, so
their customers tend to be larger households.  Because of their discount
prices, they are favored by families with modest means.  Yet, it is not
unusual to see people with not one, but two huge shopping carts piled high,
racking up a bill of several hundred dollars.  Of course, those people don't
do this every week; once a month might be more common.

In Hungary, the warehouse stores are similar in that they have by far the
lowest prices.  As to the "economy" packaging, it's not nearly as dominant,
perhaps because most of the customers couldn't spend the kind of amounts
their US counterparts can.  (The prices are comparable, wages aren't.)
Yes, people spend a lot of money there, too - just like here.  That is the
rationale of a discount warehouse.  But, Eva's conclusion to the contrary,
frequenting one is not a sign of economic affluence.  Quite the opposite.

In my opinion and experience, such warehouse stores play a much more
important
role in Hungary than here in the US.  One reason is the inadequate degree
of competition between regular stores.  Another is high prices in general.

As to the minimum amount (5,000 Ft) of purchase, that is about $35.

Regards,

Ferenc

>Eva Balogh wrote about her shopping expeditions with her
>yuppie-sounding friends.

And later:

>Yes, people spend a lot of money there, too - just like here.  That is the
>rationale of a discount warehouse.  But, Eva's conclusion to the contrary,
>frequenting one is not a sign of economic affluence.  Quite the opposite.


        There is something wrong here, isn't it? Are these friends
"yuppie-sounding" or people of "modest means"?

        Eva Balogh

At 11:44 PM 4/2/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>But why she has to feed the misconceptions of a 'felnotas'!

Csak azert mert te egy nagy bunko vagy.  Te csak akkor vitatkozol velem ha
mindig igazat adok neked.  S szerintem az nem vita.

Joe Szalai

At 03:49 PM 4/2/96 -0500, Sam Stowe, who thinks that anyone left of Attila
the Hun is a Marxist-Leninist, wrote:

>I'm trying to think if anyone during the Industrial Era has actually tried
>such a "Christian" totalitarian democracy. Spain, perhaps, under Franco?
>Chile under Pinochet? I can't wait to see what your examples are. I just
>hope they are dated later than, say, the end of the Enlightenment -- make
>it 1800. The problem with making such a comparison between Christianity
>and M-L is that Christians can be devout and faithful exponents of their
>beliefs without ever having to hold political power, while wielding
>political power is the ultimate aim of any Marxist-Leninist.

Sam is now trying to evade my original question by putting a date
restriction on it.  However, he does have a point about Christian
totalitarianism.  It has not been practiced for a long time.  On the other
hand, if I substitute "Islam" for "Christian", then Sam's point starts to
fall apart.  Iran is a theocracy.  In the name of Allah, they govern like
Marxist-Leninists.  I'm not sure about Iran, but I believe that at least one
Muslim country recently made apostasy a crime once again.  The
Marxist-Leninists style of governing was not new.  Nor is/was the M-L'ers
object of wielding political power.  All political parties want that!

Joe Szalai

At 07:19 AM 4/3/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>I just get a
>chuckle out of the thought that you decry the evil capitalist system, while
>you are being supported by that same system (and very comfortably, too, I
>would think). Doesn't that seem the least little bit contradictory to you?

OK Johanne.  I gross $2,136.58 every month.  My after tax take home pay is
$1,448.16 per month.  I have not had a pay raise for over four years because
of the economic situation.  I'm not complaining about my comfort level.  I
can get by.  However, I'm always interested in knowing the income of the
proponents of the political right wing, libertarian or otherwise.  Do you
have it in you to tell us your income, before and after taxes and tax
loopholes?   I think it's always good to know the income of opinion makers.
You've made your opinions quite clear.  Will you tell us how much you make?
By the way, the Conservative government in Ontario has a very definite
Hayekite bias.  They hate the public sector so much that they are trying
everything to make it more accountable.  This week, all public sector
workers who make more than $100,000.00 had to disclose their income.  At the
University of Waterloo, where I work, 52 people had their incomes disclosed.
Most are deans, top administrators, and department heads.  I guess the
Conservatives forgot that many of these people are opinion makers and indeed
helped to elect the present government.  Interestingly enough, letters
appeared in the local daily newspaper in which the authors argued that the
incomes of all opinion makers be made public.  I have no doubt the
Conservatives have started something that they will deeply regret.  I
applaud their policy!!  The income disclosure movement has arrived.

Joe Szalai

P.S.  The above figures are in Canadian dollars.  And, oh yes, I have a degree.

At 07:16 PM 4/3/96 -0500,Joe Szalai wrote:
>Do you
>have it in you to tell us your income, before and after taxes and tax
>loopholes?
(After disclosing his own income figures).

Dear Joe,

My employer knows my income. And since I (as a taxpayer) am the employer of
all public (federal and New York State) employees in the US, I should know
what they earn. I also should have a say in what their raises, benefits,
etc. are. I even should be involved in the hire-fire decisions. It is as
simple as that.

When someone takes a job in the public sector this is part of it.

Please don't take this personally.

Gabor D. Farkas

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier",
Canadian > pokes a stick into Szalai's nest
and stirs it around a bit:

>Joe, Joe, Joe . . .
>
>That is your interpretation. Capitalism is not the
be-all-and-the-end-all.
>It is a tool for the efficient production and distribution of goods,
giving
>the producers and consumers of goods the maximum possible opportunity for
>selling and buying - the law of supply and demand. The moral framework is
>provided by religious and cultural beliefs. If they are lost, the
capitalist
>system itself seems empty and without meaning - in your phrase,
>"you...contribute to the bottom line and then you die." But that may be
your
>own opinion and not necessarily shared by others who still retain the
>moral/religious framework which makes life more meaningful.
>
>Yours,
>
>Johanne

Ooooh! Good answer! He won't like it, though.
Sam Stowe

S. Bihari wrote:
>"Ki mint veti a'gya't, u'gy alussza a'lma't"
>
>Literally translated, it means: "(The quality of) your sleep depends on
>the way you make your bed."  Figuratively, however, it implies that the
>success of your endeavors depend on your (careful) preparations.
>
>Martha

"Nessze vila'g vetette, feku"dj bele s aludja'l"

Another saying (ko:zmonda's) which literally translated means you made
your bed, now lay in it and sleep.

Mike.  :)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Re: The Kadar regime
>
> Eva Durant )
> Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:15:05 +0100
> stated:

> Well, I only lived through some university philosophy etc.
> seminars in the 70s Hungary, but my memory of them is far
> more pleasant, than of the one I had to go to when I was
> unemployed in the UK, and was told, that it is my fault
> if I have no job, even if the number of unemployed were
> hundred times of the number of jobs in the area.
>
> Anecdote: when we lived in Hungary (80s), my husband due to lack
> of Hungarian language skills, ended up as "bekacsosz" (river
> warden) for the local coop.   In 1987 all such employees -
> mostly semi-retired/handicapped old people except the odd
> mancunian, were called to a meeting. The boss said:
> "Comrades, we have to apply from now  capitalist
> methods of production. You are all fired!"
>
Thank you for sharing this.  Speaking for myself only, I can finally
place the root of your past displayed philosophies.

Regards,
Aniko Dunford

At 04:54 PM 4/3/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>My employer knows my income. And since I (as a taxpayer) am the employer of
>all public (federal and New York State) employees in the US, I should know
>what they earn. I also should have a say in what their raises, benefits,
>etc. are. I even should be involved in the hire-fire decisions. It is as
>simple as that.
>
>When someone takes a job in the public sector this is part of it.
>
>Please don't take this personally.

Gabor, I think you misunderstood me.  I agree with the income disclosure of
ALL public sector workers, regardless of income.  In fact, I'm in favour of
disclosing EVERYONES income.  It is the ONLY way to insure that everyone's
paying their required tax.  After all, if one has nothing to hide, then one
has no reason to hide the amount of their income.  No?

Joe Szalai

At 06:18 AM 4/3/96 -0800, Eva Balogh, wrote:

>Joe is a "felnotas," that's for sure, and I think I owe the list a better
>explanation.

And if I weren't such a "felnotas", as you so readily agree with Janos, then
the list readers wouldn't be getting a better explanation of Albert Szabo's
"kampf".

Joe Szalai

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>Eva Durant, who is not an apologist:
>
>>I repeat, I am not in the business of defending
>>the pre-1990 regime, I want something much different
>>and better, however totally ignoring any achievements
>>of those times is degrading for Hungarians who put their
>>efforts in as well, as any other people.

This is an entirely fair comment.

>        I think first and foremost Eva Durant must compare the
>"achievements" of other European, non-socialist countries with the
>"achievements" of the socialist bloc, including the Soviet Union.

*Must*?

>The fact
>is that all European non-socialist countries outstripped the economic growth
>of the socialist bloc. [snip]

Much of what Ms Balogh writes is interesting and the arguments that
compare Western economic growth, education and medical care, are, up
to a point, hard to disagree with....

>        Oh, come on, Eva Durant.... [snip]... This just shows
>how little you know about the U.S.

More *interesting* stuff..

[snip]..
>>> >There were internationally accepted
>>> >   successes in the arts, sciences etc,
>>>
>>>         Again, I would like to get details.
>
>>
>>Oh, common, you must have heard about some of them.
>>I am just sorting some offprints (bio-chemistry),
>>and Hungarian names are keep popping up from the 50s/60s,
>>Maths/science results in schools were the best in the
>>world equaling Japan, and best for girls, if I remember
>>correctly.
>
>        Let's not try to argue that all these successes were the results of
>the excellent education the socialist system gave to the country's young.
>Hungary was always very strong in math and in the sciences. I think we can
>come up with some rather famous names, way before the blessings of
>socialism: von Neumann might be a name to recall in this age of the computer.

So, did socialist education have a bad effect, or didn't it?
Heads Ms Balogh wins, tales Ms Durant loses!

>  Young musicians won international competitions,
>>there were 4 young piano playing stars simultaniously,
>>Hungarian artists were in demand all over the world from
>>the sixties.
>
>        Ditto. The Franz Liszt Academy always produced excellent people and
>obviously in the 1960s the department of piano at the academy had excellent
>teachers and excellent students. But don't tell me that all that had much to
>do with the Kadar regime.

Ditto.

[snip]..
>        Oh, yes. Books were subsidized and therefore they were inexpensive
>(mind you, the paper and binding of terrible quality). However, as you know
>very well, not everything could be printed in Hungary. I always had to take
>a few copies of Orwell's Animal Farm along for friends who were dying to
>read it. Or, Dr. Zhivago, just to mention a few.

When you took copies of Orwell into Hungary, were those seen and
okayed by Hungarian customs? I've taken stuff into Hungary that I'd
be very wary of taken into Romania, for instance. BTW, the British
government tries to suppress literature that it considers detrimental
to its interests (e.g., Spycatcher, off-hand)

>>You must have heard about the 9 gold medals in Tokio
>>olympics.
>
>        Oh, come on. Everybody knows that amateur sports in the socialist
>countries were a joke. Steroids in East Germany, of course, was the worst
>case of abuse. But the non-existent jobs in order to pretend that they were
>amateurs and not professionals! So, let's not talk about gold medals.

Yes, let's! Sport was very well supported in the Eastern bloc. Bringing
up the amateur v professional thing is a complete red herring. The
question of *shamateurism* has a been a *global* bone of contention in
many sports since WW2. The GDR was, per capita, the strongest sporting
state in the world. Steroids? Talk to Diane Modhal! The golden era of
Magyar soccer was unfairly prevented from being consummated in 1954
by the WEST German team which WAS on steroids! (A few months ago someone
posted here, or on scm, that all the members of that 1954 FRG team have
since died as a result.) In chess Hungarians have a strong tradition,
but during the Kadar regime they really took off: twice gold medal
winners in the world team olympics ahead of the juggernaut (socialist)
Soviets! I doubt that a non-socialist Hungary would have been able to
do it. Americans, Brits, etc, all lamented the terrific support for
chess (and sport generally) in the Eastern bloc and the lack of it
westwards. There was nothing to stop Western governments doing the same
(and they did anyway, up to a point)! Generally speaking, communist
regimes did well for sport. I have had some contact with the Haladas club
in Szombathely and they are now struggling without state/county support.
Financial sponsorship is hard to come by in these difficult days.

[snip]...
>>Which means, that the other Europe is in fact not all that
>>free, not all that democratic, but the Balogh Evas of
>>the world just would not hear about that...

>        I am afraid, Eva Durant is no better than my doctor friend who
>doesn't seem to grasp the difference between totalitarian dictatorship (mild
>form) and the rule of law where the individual's right is respected.

In her summary Ms Durant is only saying that holding smug views about
an unquestionably more equitable West is dangerous. Please explain the
rights of the individual to the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six,
the businessmen wrongly imprisoned as scapegoats by the guilty government
ministers in the *Arms to Iraq* affair, police chief John Stalker who
was sacked for exposing the *shoot to kill* policy in Northern Ireland,
the Indian women forced to undergo degrading virginity tests before being
allowed into Britain, or for that matter most Asians, blacks, or even
just most foreigners on the problems of living in xenophobic Britain,
Dr Al-Massari who is being victimized by the British government because
the Saudis want it that way, Hanratty who was wrongfully hanged and the
innumerable victims of *rough justice* in Britain (there's even a high
profile TV programme inundated with outrageous cases!), the large numbers
of women imprisoned and criminalized simply because they don't have the
money to pay exorbitant rents, council taxes, the price of food for their
kids, the growing army of unemployed and homeless on the streets, etc,
etc, etc. Rights of the individual in the West? Really?

>If Eva Durant doesn't see the difference between let's say the Soviet Union or
>Romania or Czechoslovakia or Hungary, on the one hand, and Germany, France,
>England, on the other,

These are your words, not hers. She has already stated that she does
support the pre-1990 regimes. She is always looking for something better.
Any sane person can only applaud that. Are you really so self-satisfied?

>then there is no use of talking.

Yes, Ms Durant is clearly wasting her time....:-)

Best regards,

George

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Eva Durant > wrote:
>The points I usualy make:

>2. That in Hungary inspite the totalitarian conditions
>   there were positive developments; brainwashing was
>   not particilarily successful and was given up

Hmm... Are you absolutely certain about that???

Eva Durant further states:
>   Hungary
>   seemed to possess comparable number of happy people
>   to other countries.

Comparable to What, When, and most importantly, by whom?

I would love to draw your undivided attention, specifically to the
postings submitted by:
J. Hernadi,
G. Farkas
E. Balogh
Not that the other postings were not interesting or relevant mind you, but
specifically those three above, address issues regarding the quality of
life in Hungary under the old regime, which you continually choose
to ignore or to accept as having been reality.  I agree with all their
points, and quite frankly, cannot fathom how you could possibly have
missed experiencing those points, given all your years of living in
Hungary.

In addition: I am sure that the Hungarian people were happy

- when being subjected to live in extremely crowded *facilities* due to
lack of available housing.  In far too many cases, these facilities had
no running hot water, no central heat and shared toilets with at least
five, some even as many as 40 other families.  Today, we might be
generous, in referring to them as rat holes.
- when being faced with a 10 year long waiting list for a state provided
home.  After the long wait, I am sure that they were happy that they had
absolutely no choice as to the location or the quality of the facility.
If they turned it down, they faced another potential ten year wait.
- having their businesses, factories, private homes, vacation homes, lands
confiscated by the state; only to find themselves working it; for the
interest of the state
- when facing long waitlists for surgeries in the state ran hospitals.
Regardless of the urgency of their needs
- when being subjected to work in hazardous and dangerous surroundings,
without any safety or health standards.  This lead to many fatal diseased
workers, when not death.  The state in all cases denied that their work
environment had been the cause of their illness; let alone compensate them
for having contracted such

Anyways, I don't think that further expounding is necessary.  Please read
the postings again Eva.

Aniko Dunford

Eva Durant > wrote:

>and better, however totally ignoring any achievements
>of those times is degrading for Hungarians who put their
>efforts in as well, as any other people.

It is my opinion, that ignoring the facts at hand, regarding the
lives/lifestyles which Hungarians were subjected to, is what Hungarians
would find to be *degrading*.  They are, as are we all, well aware of
their past and present accomplishments regarding arts and sports.
>
>The Hungarians had showers
>and nursery and subsidised goods/holidays even, the
>English had none of these but more money in their hand.

I wonder if the author also examined the working conditions in many many
factories.  It is my understanding that countless workers were subjected
to extremely hazardous conditions, with absolutely no regard for their
physical well being.  As for the showers, good thing!  Since most of them
had none in their homes!

>Say teachers in the eighties. In the UK twice the number
>of contact-time, no time allocated for preparation, no
>desk in the teacher's room and no cooparation from parents,
>school-managment, local authority...
>
Interesting that you should bring this into the topic.  I distinctively
remember being in classes with well over 35 students per teacher..during
the 50's and 60's.  And I don't recall much contact time with any of my
teachers.  For that matter, I recall very little concern displayed in
general for the students by the teaching body.  Regarding school
management, they simply considered themselves as being gods - and parents
were to bow down - big time! Let alone, be asked for co-operation.  In
general, I have no idea what you are comparing what with.>
>
>'Cause there were no such thing elsewhere???  Again,
>it depends how you measure that gap.  I say, compare
>nursery facilities...

I don't know much of the UK Eva, but, in Canada at least, we have had
little choices but to continue with our carreers, while raising families,
without having had the option of even dreaming about subsidized nursery
care, or the luxury of having extended family at hand.  Yet, most people
seem to manage very well, considering.  Also, we have learned to recognize
the fact that when anything becomes *subsidized* also ends up costing us
bundles in the long run...by way of increased taxes.  Hungary today, is
still paying for those well subsidized nurseries, at a time, when they are
less and less used by today's generation, many of whom; while still have
the choice, simply opt for other routes of care for their children.  Makes
me wonder why that might be; considering you keep telling us how great
they were/are.

>
>some of those other European countries.
>You must have heard about the 9 gold medals in Tokio
>olympics.  D'you want more? I'll get the facts for you...
>
Actually, here is a point, that I can finally agree with!  But must add,
aside from Tokio,the Hungarians(and other eastern euros) did extremly well
in Seul (where I believe that Kayak and Canoe alone drew 12 medals, mostly
golds and silvers), in Barcelona almost ditto plus a few bronzes, and I
have no doubt that they will continue to do very well again in Atlanta
this August.

However... lets consider and compare the funding structure for the entire
sport organizations within Hungary as well as all the old *iron curtain*
countries.  Where, they had the luxury of *appointing* sponsors for their
sports, by way of state ran entities.  So, each hospital, plant, etc,
would be responsible for funding the coaches, the facilities, all the
travel expenses, clothing required, etc...  Hungary and the other
countries, ended up producing world calibre coaches, and world calibre
athletes.  The athletes, in all cases, were better paid than any other
profession within the country; usually, at least at par with some of the
upper end politicians.  Given the population draw from, combined with the
amazing incentives, one does not have to be a genious to understand the
reasons why these countries continue(d) to produce elite and outstanding
athletes, in many of the Olympic sports.

But, coming back to E.Balogh's comments; who do you suppose is paying for
all those, once again subsidized *luxuries* now????

In closing, your words tell me, that what you are looking for is truly
Eutopia.  You want it all!  Job security, subsidized everything, no power
to private enterprise - those filthy capitalists - and, you likely would
have it all come about, by abolishing all taxes - am I right?

Aniko Dunford

Just some corrections to my last posting:

>Heads Ms Balogh wins, *TAILS* Ms Durant loses!

>be very wary of *TAKING* into Romania, for instance. BTW, the British

..and most importantly:

>These are your words, not hers. She has already stated that she
>does *NOT* support the pre-1990 regimes.

Apologies for the glitches :-)

George

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