>>The real issue here is the trustworthiness
>>of Cilli's testimony. You suggest that Cilli, driven by envy and
>>hate, lied about Hunyadi's ethnicity and, therefore, Hunyadi
>>was not born in Wallachia. Correct?

>I only wanted to deal with the "ethnical discrimination" issue
>here, on which i don't agree with you.

In my opinion the ethnicity was not an isssue in those times.
It is my understanding that you think it was and, therefore, this
is why Cilli stressed (i.e., lied according to your opinion)
Hunyadi's non-Hungarian origin. It wouldn't make any sense to
accuse him of being a foreigner if that was no big deal for most
of the other nobles, right?

>I don't think Cilley was trustworthy simply because he
>was a lifelong  enemy of the Hunyady family.

This is simply not enough. If Cilli was lying, it means that
his intention was to discredit Hunyadi with the other nobles.
Obviously, if nobody cared about the ethnic issue it means that
Cilli was firing blanks. Was he stupid or what?

>After all, he was who started to spread the juicy story of
>the Sigismund legend as well.

Really? My guess was that Hunyadi and his sons had only to
benefit from this legend. Was Cilli trying to hurt them or to
help? Bonifi and Chalcocondylas also recorded this legend
and both these authors wrote admiringly about Hunyadi.

>>The social uplift of Cillis, Hunyadis, and many others
>>proves that someone's ethnical origin was not important.

>Then why did you come out with this sensationalistic "ethni-
>cal discrimination" statement if even you don't believe in its
>plausibility ?

You lost me here. I thought YOU are implying that ethnical
discrimination was an issue, so that you can base on something
your assertion that Cilli lied about Hunyadi's origin.
Otherwise, if ethnical discrimitation was not an issue, Cilli
probably would had lied abouth something else, such as "... it
is known that this Janos Hunyadi has black eyes." In this case,
if Janos did not have black eyes, we are forced to belive that
people with that kind of eyes were not welcomed in 15th century
Hungary.

>>So one should put in the balance Hunyadi's own testimony,
>>that in 1448 he was over 60 years old,

>I yet have to see this "own testimony".

"...iam supra sexuaginta numeramus annos, quibus paene
continuis furia illam..."[Schwandtner's Scriptores
Rerum Hungaricum, 2:53, 1767, Vienna]

>Hunyadi died in 1456 aug. 11 in the military camp of Zimony
>because of pest. According to you then he was almost 70 years
>old, and still active solder. It is unlikely, very hard to believe.
>Even the age i suggest (60) is very high. Don't forget we are in
>the middle age.

I thought he was an active commander not soldier. Anyhow, I do
agree that almost seventy years old sounds maybe surprising.
The question is, should one disregard the trustful data in favor
of the less reliable one just because the straightforward conclusion
does not fit a very subjective and incomplete image about the
average 15th century fellow? Was Hunyadi representative for that
"average", whatever that average means?

Liviu Iordache

In article >,  says...
>
>
>Dear reader
>
>
>Following is a letter about the Bosnia issue to be sent to anybody who may
>be interested in this regard, irrespective of his/her religion or
>nationality. You can distribute it in any proper way to support innocent
>and oppressed Bosnian people. The letter can be sent by your own signature
>as well. 

Here's a sample of my human dignity, moini. Keep this out of 
soc.culture.scottish, please.

Him Again (showing dignity by not saying what he *really* wanted to say)

In article >,
Laura Porto  > wrote:
>I'm looking for Magyar classes in the Seattle, WA area or classes via snail ma
il or 
>the web.  Any suggestions?

Look up the Hungarian American Association of Washington (HAAW) phone
number in the Seattle phone book.  They used to have language classes if
sufficient number of people showed interest of attending.

Joe

"A. Moini" > writes in soc.culture.iranian,,soc.culture
.irish,,soc.culture.israel,,soc.culture.italian,,soc.culture.japan,,soc.culture
.jewish,,soc.culture.jordan,,soc.culture.korean,,soc.culture.kurdish,,soc.cultu
re.kuwait,,soc.culture.laos,,soc.culture.latin-america,,soc.culture.lebanon,,so
c.culture.maghreb,,soc.culture.magyar,,soc.culture.malagasy,,soc.culture.malays
ia,,soc.culture.mexican,,soc.culture.misc,,soc.culture.mongolian,,soc.culture.n
ative,,soc.culture.nepal,,soc.culture
..netherlands,,soc.culture.new-zealand,,soc.culture.nigeria,,soc.culture.nordic
,,soc.culture.pakistan,,soc.culture.palestine,,soc.culture.peru,,soc.culture.po
lish,,soc.culture.portuguese,,soc.culture.puerto-rico,,soc.culture.punjab,,soc.
culture.quebec,,soc.culture.romanian,,soc.culture.scientists,,soc.culture.scott
ish,,soc.culture.singapore,,soc.culture.slovenia,,soc.culture.somalia,,soc.cult
ure.south-africa,,soc.culture.soviet,,soc.culture.spain,,soc.culture.sri-lanka,
,soc.culture.swiss,,soc.culture.syria:

>
>Dear reader
>
>
>Following is a letter about the Bosnia issue to be sent to anybody who may
>be interested in this regard, irrespective of his/her religion or
>nationality. You can distribute it in any proper way to support innocent
>and oppressed Bosnian people. The letter can be sent by your own signature
>as well. 

Next time, base such a letter on facts instead of lies and other strange
things. One cannot say that the Servs are the bad guys while the other
parties are innocent. The muslems committed war crimes as well, even
when they were under the protective umbrella of the UN. It just happens
to be that the Servs are much stronger which puts the other parties in
the underdog position which apparently makes them more favorable for the
general public.

	Mike
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>A Plea to Your Human Dignity
>
>It is, now, more than 3.5 years that the world is hearing horrific and
>sorrowful news from the heart of Europe. A region which used to claim to
>be civilized has put its civilization at risk of total nullification. The
>most abominable and the worst human tragedy has occurred in the centre of
>Europe, still the so-called superpowers are watching and even endorsing
>it. What are the harvest and motives that the western governments acted so
>decisive and swift when it came to Kuwait but are playing desperate and
>crippled in the case of Bosnia. According to the foreign minister of
>Bosnia the Serbs raped and murdered Civilians after taking the so-called
>"safe area" of Srebrenica. He put the death toll as high as 5,000 to
>10,000. "In one instance, 1,600 young boys and older men, who have been
>considered by the same Serbs as being not at the age of to be as soldiers,
>were executed in a soccer stadium after being taken prisoners," he added.
>
>All this happened in an area where the UN actively disarmed Bosnian
>defenders two years ago -- as Serbs had demanded in return for not
>capturing the enclave. After confiscating the Bosnians' weapons, the UN
>had pledged to protect Srebrenica as the first " safe haven" set up in
>Bosnia. Let us learn the lessons of history. Let us not allow ourselves to
>be the passive witnesses or accomplices to the unacceptable. "Rebel Serbs
>long ago abandoned humanity as well as civilized behaviour, committing
>what even dispassionate observers say is genocide and flouting peace
>agreements," Elizabeth Neuffer wrote in the Boston Globe, the week before
>Srebrenica fell. "But the Muslim-led Bosnian government has tried to play
>by the rules. It has kept United Nations cease-fires. It has sat down at
>the diplomatic bargaining table, again and again. In return, the country
>has been rewarded -- with a UN peace-keeping mission unable to protect
>itself, much less the Bosnians. With renewed shelling of Sarajevo, which
>kills an average of 10 people per day, without a whimper of protest from
>the West. With three years of war and no chance for peace..... We in the
>West have failed them. We promised them the civilized world would make an
>uncivilized conflict safer. We denied them the right to arms, and their
>people are still dying as a result of that embargo." she wrote. 
>
>"If you tie people's hands you are bound to defend them if you do not want
>to be an accomplice in their murders," said Prime Minister of Bosnia Haris
>Silajdzic. People who have been promised protection against Serbian
>barbarism are being ignored at a time
>when that barbaric aggression is the most dangerous to their very
>existence. The leaders of the west in their last meeting in London
>promised "substantial and decisive action" in response to any attack on
>the Gorazde safe area. This was righteously interpreted by the Bosnian
>government as a "Green light" to Serbs to continue their barbaric attacks
>on the safe areas of Zepa, Bihac and Sarajevo. The result of such a
>disgraceful decision, to date, has been the fall of Zepa, another
>so-called "safe heaven". 
>
>Pope John Paul II in a series of statements has called for "defensive and
>proportionate" intervention in Bosnia in "a just war" to defend the
>civilian population. He said that if Europe did not react to "acts of
>barbarity and crimes against humanity," it risked falling into the "depths
>of ignominy.". This, in fact, is a call for all human being, not just the
>Europeans. The main issue is that this disgusting war is UNJUST. NO where
>in the world it seems natural, logical and moral for a group of people to
>be banned from defending themselves by restrictions, embargoes and
>blockades. To date, the arms embargo of Bosnians has been the ONLY UN
>resolution on the matter of the imposed war against them that has ever
>implemented. The question raised by the foreign minister of Bosnia should
>be thought deeply by all mankind: "The burden is upon those who have
>imposed the arms embargo to show us that after 3.5 years of having failed
>to stop this war, the aggression, the genocide, seen in places like
>Srebrenica, why anyone could ever consider that arms embargo is legal?".
>
>This is a plea to your human honour, dignity, and zeal. If you do NOT like
>your respectful wife, lovely daughter, and/or honourable sister being
>raped before their husbands/fathers/brothers then do NOT like this happen
>to others either. If you feel sorrow for the line of teenage boys whose
>throats were slit and bled to death then: 
>
>Express your responsibility by raising your voice. Show your humanity. Let
>fellow humans in Bosnia defend their lives, families, and their land. Ask
>your government for lifting the immoral/illogical arms embargo from the
>very victims of the most barbaric genocide of the century. 
>
>Muslim Students Assoc. of Queensland - Islamic Society of St. Lucia
>Indonesian / Iranian / Malaysian / Pakistan Students Assoc. -
>Bangladesh Assoc., Brisbane
>
>                                                                              
                                                                               
                                                                               
                                                                               
      #)ţ     #)ţ     #)ţ     
#)ţ     #)ţ     
#)
    
#
)Ś

        D        	
>        
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   €
     €
     (  Times Ne
w Roman 	Symbol & Arial   
€
 b  b    € €b      e  "  ˆ   Đ  h
    
ŽřŹřeĄře    Q  q  
            NICK ANICK A

In article >,
Joseph Toth  > wrote:

>I would like to learn the meaning of the name HORNYAK.  It is the surname of m
y 
>paternal great-grandmother from near Satoraljaujhely.

It's a Slovak name, with a meaning akin to the English "Highlander", if
I am not mistaken.  Since there are some Slovaks monitoring this news
group, they will probably confirm it, or correct me.

>I would also be interested if the name HORYNAK exists, or if it is the 
>incorrect spelling of HORNYAK.

It must be a fairly common name, but it uses the Hungarian spelling
("ny").

Joe

INTRODUCTION :

  I have started a mailing list on which we can discuss various topics
related to AFS (American Field Service).  AFS is a global association
of interchange program for highschool students.  My name is Masakazu Okui
and have been to Bolivia in 1992-93 as an AFS student.

  This Mailing List (ML) is to talk about interchange program, in detail,
talk about the interchange program. For example, discuss about some problem
of AFS interchange program, contact somebody you want to see or talk, or
chatter, etc...

  This ML is an open list, so anybody can take part in and enjoy with us.
But this ML is experimental ML, so it may be closed in early time.

  You can use any lunguage but it's better to use English because everybody
can understand.


HOW TO TAKE PART IN : 

  To subscribe, please send E-MAIL to >
with only "subscribe afs" in body of e-mail. (Don't write nothing in Subject
Line) And if you send an e-mail with "unsubscribe afs" in the body to
>, you can leave from this ML.
  
 
HOW TO POST E-MAIL TO MAILING-LIST
 
  To post mailing list, you have to post to >
 
 
IF YOU HAVE SOME TROUBLE.....
 
  Please write to 
 
 
Now Let's enjoy with us!!!!!!
 


--

*** Greetings from the Hungarian-American List ***
      ***      http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/       ***
      ***       mailto:          ***


BLACK SEA FLEET SAYS UKRAINIAN NAVY MISINFORMS KIEV. The Black Sea
Fleet's press center rejected Ukrainian accusations that its commander
is undermining the negotiations on dividing the fleet, ITAR-TASS
reported on 3 August. The statement disputed the Ukrainian accusation
that Ukrainian navy chief Vice Admiral Volodymyr Bezkorovainy had been
denied a seat on the honor stand at the Navy Day celebrations, claiming
he had stayed away to attend a joint U.S.-Ukrainian exercise. The press
center said a number of Ukrainian senior officials attended the
celebration, including the interior minister, the security service
chief, and the Ground Forces commander. -- Doug Clarke, OMRI, Inc.

SLOVAK PRESIDENT IN U.S. Michal Kovac on 3 August left for a 12-day
visit to the U.S. He will receive on 5 August an award from the American
Bar Association in Chicago for his role in promoting democracy since
Slovakia's independence. Kovac is also expected to meet with U.S. Vice
President Al Gore. His visit takes place amid a continuing conflict with
Premier and Movement for a Democratic Slovakia (HZDS) Chairman Vladimir
Meciar, whose party has several times called on Kovac to resign.
According to an opinion poll carried out by the Slovak Statistical
Office in late May and early June, 42% of the respondents said Kovac
should remain president, 36% said he should resign, and 22% were
uncertain. Only 15% said Kovac is "always apolitical," while 26% said he
is "mostly apolitical," Sme reported on 3 August. -- Sharon Fisher,
OMRI, Inc.

CONTINUED CONTROVERSY OVER SLOVAK MEDIA. Anti-Monopoly Office Chairman
Pavel Frano on 3 August dismissed Imrich Juhar as department director,
Narodna obroda reported. Juhar the previous day requested that the
Ministry of Culture stop giving state funds to the pro-government
dailies Slovenska Republika and Hlas ludu to publish supplements for
national minorities, arguing that the subsidies limit economic
competition. Also on 3 August, the Slovak opposition criticized Premier
and HZDS Chairman Meciar for giving prizes to controversial publications
and journalists the previous day. The awards, named after 19th-century
Slovak linguist Ludovit Stur, went to journalists and newspapers
nominated by the pro-HZDS Association of Slovak Journalists (ZSN).
Winners included ZSN Chairman and Slovak TV director Jozef Darmo, HZDS
deputies Roman Hofbauer and Dusan Slobodnik, Slovenska Republika, and
the weeklies Extra and Zmena. Democratic Union Deputy Chairman Jan Budaj
called it "scandalous" that Meciar awarded a prize to Zmena, which has
been accused of anti-Semitism. This week's issue features a number of
attacks on U.S. financier George Soros, Reuters reported. -- Sharon
Fisher, OMRI, Inc.

NEW U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ESTONIA. Lawrence Taylor presented his
credentials to Estonian President Lennart Meri on 2 August, BNS
reported. He also discussed with Foreign Minister Riivo Sinijarv the
possibility of U.S. economic and military aid. Prime Minister Tiit Vahi
and Taylor on 3 August discussed relations between Russia and Estonia
and border issues. Vahi received assurances that the U.S. will back
Estonia in questions of vital importance. -- Saulius Girnius, OMRI, Inc.

HUNGARY TO OPEN NEW CAMPS FOR REFUGEES FROM EX-YUGOSLAVIA. AFP on 3
August reported that Hungary will open more camps to deal with the
latest wave of refugees from the former Yugoslavia. A new camp housing
some 2,000 refugees will be opened soon in Debrecen in former Soviet
Army barracks. Hungary's main refugee camp in Nagyatad is now full with
2,000 people, of whom half arrived in July. Philippe Labreveux of the
UNHCR said that so far this year, a total of 2,000 refugees have arrived
in Hungary from the former Yugoslavia, mainly from the Croatian region
of Slavonia and the Serbian province of Kosovo. Hungary has allocated
$7.87 million for refugees from its state budget. -- Jan Cleave, OMRI,
Inc.

UN SAYS "PEACE PROCESS SHOULD TAKE ITS COURSE." International media on 4
August reported that the talks in Geneva headed by UN mediator Thorvald
Stoltenberg the previous day came to nothing. A Croatian spokesman said
that the Serbs refused to budge on the key issue of their political
reintegration into Croatia. Stoltenberg, however, felt that more
progress has been made than he had hoped. Meanwhile in Belgrade, the
influential U.S. ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbraith, met with
Krajina Serb "Prime Minister" Milan Babic, who agreed to the principle
of a political settlement. Babic promised to reopen the oil pipeline
immediately and launch talks on political and economic issues. Galbraith
said that the Serb concessions based on the so-called Z-4 plan provided
an opportunity to end the war. A UN spokesman, however, told the BBC
that the Croats were "cynical and skeptical" about Babic's pledges. The
UN expressed regret that the Croats will not "allow the peace process to
take its course." The Security Council passed a resolution warning that
"there can be no military solution." -- Patrick Moore, OMRI, Inc.

TWO NEW FUNDS FOR ALBANIAN ENTERPRISES. The German Bank for
Reconstruction has opened a development fund in Tirana and the Albanian-
American Investment Fund opened an office in Tirana, BETA reported. Both
funds are designed to offer help to small and medium-size enterprises
and to support the privatization process. They will give credits and
technical assistance to firms in construction and tourism. President
Sali Berisha said the funds will "improve economic cooperation among
private businesses and the general level of investment in the Albanian
economy." He added that the rapid privatization of Albanian banks is one
of his priorities. -- Fabian Schmidt, OMRI, Inc.
  
[As of 1200 CET]
[As of 12:00 CET]
Compiled by Victor Gomez
Compiled by Jan Cleave

This material was reprinted with permission of the Open Media 
Research Institute, a Prague-based nonprofit organization.
               (http://www.omri.cz/)

       Copyright (C) 1995 Open Media Research Institute, Inc.
                    All rights reserved.

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> ========================================================================


08/04/95 NEW BRUNSWICK CHAPTER - had another chapter meeting on July 30,
         1995.  Here are some highlights.
         - The chapter discussed issues related to the Open.  Everyone
           who went was quite satisfied with the workshops; everyone
           also agrees with NC Chair Stetz Andi that there should be an
           age minimum of 18 at this event;
         - The chapter began planning for the 5th Annual National
           Convention, which will be held in New Brunswick in January.
           The chapter wants to open the convention to the New Brunswick
           Hungarian-American community--to demonstrate how far we have
           come since the AAYH was formed--and for this reason wants to
           switch the schedule.  We want Saturday to be for speeches and
           presentations (more public stuff) and Sunday for the meeting
           on internal issues.  For Saturday, we were thinking speeches
           (like the chair's address, the chapter president's speeches,
           and project presentations), a round-table discussion on the
           next generation, and the debate on and vote for the next
           NC chair;
         - We approved the 1995-96 agenda and continued work on the
           many upcoming New Brunswick events;
         - We began discussing the transition now that Chapter President
           Bernie Tamas is leaving the country.  Final decisions will be
           made at the next meeting, on August 20. (Bernard Tamas)

08/04/95 SPECIAL INFO - Starting tomorrow, I will no longer be using my
         Princeton University e-mail account ).
         Until further notice, contact me at my Rutgers account:
         . (Bernard Tamas)

---
AAYH Email:		
AAYH WWW:		http://www.aayh.org/

I have translations on all of these available on electronic media if you 
need them I could post it or send to you as EMAIL. These are at home so 
I will have to post it when I get home.
Fred H.