>>I think what Agnes meant was, that in Quebec, where it is my
understanding
>>that French is the "official" language, there are problems with those
who
>>speak English.
>>
>>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>I'm not in favour of language enforcement of any kind, anywhere.
However,
>a one-sided, "my-sided", attitude contributes to the establishment of
>language police.
>
>The "problems" that English speakers experience in Quebec are about the
>same, and in many cases much less, than Francophones have in the rest of
>Canada.  You may not recall, but surely Agnes remembers, the rage and
anger
>that right-wing rednecks expressed when Canadian law was changed to
require
>both French and English on packaged foods, manufactured goods, etc..
There
>was so much talk of "having French shoved down our throats".  Of course,
>the Francophones didn't complain about English being shoved down their
>throats.  Instead, in greater numbers, they're now willing to just leave
>this marriage.  They no longer want to hear Anglophone rednecks and they
>don't want to hear about the language police any more.  They just want
out.
> Personally, I wish they'd stay, but I understand the attitudes that's
>driving them out.
>
>I don't agree with the limitations on Hungarian in Romania.  However,
when
>we were in charge, didn't we have a "magyarization" policy?  Why are we
so
>shocked now?
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe, I lived in Montreal for 14 years.  In 1977 we just folded and left.
I don't want to go into details about Quebec - this is not the right
forum.  I just want to tell you one thing.  WHen I was a child, my father
always told me I had to learn languages because once I will leave Hungary
I will be like deaf-mute.  French, of course, is not such an isolated
language as Hungarian, however, the lingua franca of the world is
English, even outside of this continent.  Isolating people and depriving
children of learning it will - and already is - resulting in less
opportunities and increased poverty.  I have sent my daughter to French
immersion school and believe that it would be nice if Canada would be
truly bilingual, but it just is not practical.

Agnes

In article >, 
says...
>
>aheringer wrote:
>>
>> This is very interesting.  All I know is what I have read in
Koestler's
>> book.  I thought in Israel the Khazar origin is not acceptable, since
if
>> we (ashkenazim) are of Khazar origin, we have no "right of return" to
>> Jerusalem.
>>
>> Re: Hungarian history, we always learned that there were khazars
coming
>> in with Arpad to the Carpathian basin, ergo, Jews were in Hungary
since
>> the "honfoglalas".  Only, when I went to school, we didn't know
anything
>> about "The Third Tribe".
>>
>> Agnes
>>
>> Please keep us abreast of further developments!
>Agnes, what were you answering to?
>Miklos

This one:

From: Steven Weiss >
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
Subject: Khazars, Mongols, James joyce
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:12:14 -0600
Message-ID: >
Reply-To: 

This morning on NPR there was a story on a documentary, aired in Israel,
on the Khazars.  Like those searching for Atlantis, many persons are
obsessed with discovering more about these lost people.  I would like to
know how people in Hungary view Khazar history.  Needless to say
Neo-Nazis use Khazar history as racist propaganda.  What is the GENERAL
view in Hungary of the few things we know of the Khazars.  Arthur
Koestler was convinced he was of Khazar descent, but what do most
Hungarian Jews think of their possible origins in the Ukraine?

My father has worked in Mongolia for the last 20 years as a linguist and
medical anthropologist.  A Jewish man, he is convinced he is of
Mongolian ancestry and thus was drawn to Mongolian Studies.  He has just
published a book (in China) on the parallels between pre-Mongol culture
and that of the Celts.
He will be presenting his findings at the 35th International Congress of
Asian and North African Studies taking place in Budapest this July.

I too will be attending the conference in Budapest.  I'll be discussing
the far out notion that James Joyce knew of the Khazars and added
another layer of Oriental nomadism onto Leopold Bloom.  This is just
speculation but Joyce could not have but been intrigued by a warrior
people that disappeared soon after converting to Judaism

I'd like to hear from Joyce fans in Hungary especialy szombathely.
Anyone with any comments and answers to the above queries is welcome to
mai me:  

Thank you very much for this extremely interesting piece of history.

Agnes

In article >,  says...
>
>The Kabars were a very diverse people, of multiple ethnic origins such
as
>Alan, Khazar, and Kaliz (Iranian).  The surviving testimony from
>historical sources shows that the Kaliz were Muslims and Jews, Khazars
>were Jews, and Alans were Christians and Jews.  As an example there is
the
>testimony of the Greek writer Ioannes Kinnamus which states in one place
>that Kaliz were Jews while in another place that they were Muslims.
>Therefore, we have a large mosaic of peoples who came with the
Hungarians
>to settle the Carpathian plains in 896.  However, it is true that the
>Arsiya army of the king in Atil was composed mostly of Muslims.
>
>But we do have a definite answer to the question of the predominant
>religion among the Kabars.  And it is this evidence that Dunlop does not
>even touch upon, because his work is very dated.  The evidence I am
>referring to is archaeological, and comes from Chelarevo (Serbia) and
>other parts of Hungary.  Menorahs, etrogs, and shofars were found,
dating
>from the Kabar period.  And there's a Hebrew phrase "Yehuda, Oh!" etched
>in one of the graves.  Some researchers claim they were in a burial of
>Avar Jews (for example, see Paul Wexler's book "The Ashkenazic Jews",
>1993), others say they were Kabar Jews.  The people buried there were of
>Asiatic-Turkic origin.  I think the evidence is self-evident, and Liviu
>Iordache is pretty much wrong to assume that only the upper-class
Khazars
>converted to Judaism.  It's clear that Khazars are the ancestors of a
>portion of the Hungarian Jews, just as Ehud Ya'ari himself now admits.
>
>http://www.khazaria.com
>
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
>      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Agnes Heringer wrote:

<snip>
> Joe, I lived in Montreal for 14 years.  In 1977 we just folded and left.
> I don't want to go into details about Quebec - this is not the right
> forum.  I just want to tell you one thing.  WHen I was a child, my father
> always told me I had to learn languages because once I will leave Hungary
> I will be like deaf-mute.  French, of course, is not such an isolated
> language as Hungarian, however, the lingua franca of the world is
> English, even outside of this continent.  Isolating people and depriving
> children of learning it will - and already is - resulting in less
> opportunities and increased poverty.  I have sent my daughter to French
> immersion school and believe that it would be nice if Canada would be
> truly bilingual, but it just is not practical.
>
> Agnes

I don't have any problems with what you're saying, Agnes, however this
doesn't sound like the situation in Romania.  And that's what I was
responding to.

And, by the way, a much greater percentage of Francophones in Canada are
bilingual.  It's the Anglophones who, by and large, refuse to be
bilingual.  When I was living in Montreal I met a lot of Montrealers who
spoke English only.  And they've lived in Montreal for many generations.

I've always found it curious that North Americans are reluctant to learn a
second language.  In Hungary, and Europe generally, people don't have the
same hang-ups about learning other languages.

Joe Szalai

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the sentence.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to reject
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use.
      In all cases, put the names of both the Vice President
      and one or another of his key aides on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.
key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore:
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague


Dear Mr. Vice President,

On the 21st of August, 1993, you wrote to professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem. Today, humankind is
approaching an important precedent: By the end of 1997 the
International Court of Justice will rule on the first international
environmental lawsuit in The Hague.

By this fall the ICJ will decide on this case involving the Danube
and the destruction of its ancient wetland region: the Szigetkoz.
This name, loosely translated, means: "The region of a thousand
islands," yet today there are no islands left there because the water
is gone. Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of
just one river or just the 400 endangered species of the only
inland-sea delta of Europe.

This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will
answer a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the
right to destroy  the natural treasures of this planet, or does
humankind as a whole have the right to protect them?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international NGOs have submitted a
memorial to ICJ, which the Court accepted. A Compromise Plan was
also submitted to the Court, which would guarantee the restoration of
the ancient Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the
water-supply, shipping, and energy needs of the region. For details
of this plan, information is available at the Web site:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm or from prof. Liptak.

Dear Mr. Gore. There is little question that in October the ICJ
will order Slovakia to return the Danube into its natural riverbed
and will also order the restoration of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But
the ICJ has no powers to enforce its rulings. It will, therefore, be
up to the international community to force the parties to obey the
ruling. Since this is the first international environmental lawsuit
before the ICJ, the outcome will establish an important precedent.
All governments must understand that there is a price to be paid for
being admitted into the European Community or into NATO. That price
must include respect for international law. A statement by you would
guarantee that the parties understand this. Please make that
statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, title and address>

At 07:16 AM 4/15/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I don't agree with the limitations on Hungarian in Romania.  However, when
>we were in charge, didn't we have a "magyarization" policy?  Why are we so
>shocked now?

        First of all, most of the Romanians of Transylvania didn't speak a
word of Hungarian because they attended Romanian elementary schools in
Romanian-inhabited villages. A policy of so-called "magyarization" was very
short-lived in Hungary and was totally ineffectual, especially in case of
the Romanian population. In fact, their numbers instead of diminishing grew.
For example between 1900 and 1910 their absolute number grew from 2,798,559
to 2,948,186. At the same time the number of Germans and Slovaks diminished.
        Second, I guess the reason that we are shocked now is that almost
one hundred years went by and forced denationalization is not an acceptable
concept nowadays. The European Union doesn't look upon such activities
favorably. ESB

This is the fourth in the series "Transborder Hungarians" summarized from the
HTMH's 1996 report.

D. The West		

The HTMH 1996 annual report also treats Hungarians "in the West". I don't
plan a detailed description, just a few of the highlights.

D1  AUSTRIA Included are two elements: the old, indigenous Hungarian
population in Burgenland, which now only constitutes about 1.5% of an
otherwise shrinking provincial citizenship and the more
 numerous emigrants largely in Austria's major cities.
 The latter are more than seventeen times the
Burgenland minority of 4000 (which is also exceeded by the Croat
minority)  Notwithstanding their small number, there is Hungarian
elementary school education provided in Burgenland. Hungarian high
schools have ceased operating since before WW2. Proximity to Hungary
is a factor in cultural activities.

D2 SLOVENIA.  Population is but 8500 (1991 census), though estimates
range to 12000.  The Slovene constitution specifically grants Hungarians
and Italians free use of their language and provides  minority
representation  in the central legislature. A number of special agreements
with Hungary include cultural and educational cooperation. In 1994 the
jurisdictions with .large minority ratios received representation privileges
at the local level, established an office of minorities, 
which seems to receive  tha approval of  Hungarians. Dual language
instruction is assured for those desiring it from kindergarten to high
school, and includes vocational courses. Hungarian 
religious activities are fulfilled partly by indigenous
clergy (Catholics) or by visitors (Reformed church).
 Cultural associations operate freely and receive
 good support. The Slovene government
supports both printed and electronic (radio and TV) Hungarian media: .
Relations with the majority generally harmonious.

E3 EMIGREES. The report characterizes Hungarian associations in the
major Western countries (e.g. Germany, Australia, Switzerlans, USA,
France, UK , Canada) It believes the USA has the largest number (put at
375 societies) but also labels it as fragmented by many groupings, and
hampered by distances. There is a rundown of Hungarian media in these
lands, including electronic, printed versions. No mention of the internet.
General character of associations has been shifting from
 political to social and cultural.

An estimate of Hungarians and descendants: Austria 75000; Germany
120000; Israel 200000; UK 28000; Switzerland 20000; France 35000;
USA  1.7 million; Australia: 20000  (Canada not listed).

This is the fourth in the series "Transborder Hungarians" summarized from the
HTMH's 1996 report.

D. The West

The HTMH 1996 annual report also treats Hungarians "in the West". I don't
plan a detailed description, just a few of the highlights.

D1  AUSTRIA Included are two elements: the old, indigenous Hungarian
population in Burgenland, which now only constitutes about 1.5% of an
otherwise shrinking provincial citizenship and the more
 numerous emigrants largely in Austria's major cities.
 The latter are more than seventeen times the
Burgenland minority of 4000 (which is also exceeded by the Croat
minority)  Notwithstanding their small number, there is Hungarian
elementary school education provided in Burgenland. Hungarian high
schools have ceased operating since before WW2. Proximity to Hungary
is a factor in cultural activities.

D2 SLOVENIA.  Population is but 8500 (1991 census), though estimates
range to 12000.  The Slovene constitution specifically grants Hungarians
and Italians free use of their language and provides  minority
representation  in the central legislature. A number of special agreements
with Hungary include cultural and educational cooperation. In 1994 the
jurisdictions with .large minority ratios received representation privileges
at the local level, established an office of minorities,
which seems to receive  tha approval of  Hungarians. Dual language
instruction is assured for those desiring it from kindergarten to high
school, and includes vocational courses. Hungarian
religious activities are fulfilled partly by indigenous
clergy (Catholics) or by visitors (Reformed church).
 Cultural associations operate freely and receive
 good support. The Slovene government
supports both printed and electronic (radio and TV) Hungarian media: .
Relations with the majority generally harmonious.

E3 EMIGREES. The report characterizes Hungarian associations in the
major Western countries (e.g. Germany, Australia, Switzerlans, USA,
France, UK , Canada) It believes the USA has the largest number (put at
375 societies) but also labels it as fragmented by many groupings, and
hampered by distances. There is a rundown of Hungarian media in these
lands, including electronic, printed versions. No mention of the internet.
General character of associations has been shifting from
 political to social and cultural.

An estimate of Hungarians and descendants: Austria 75000; Germany
120000; Israel 200000; UK 28000; Switzerland 20000; France 35000;
USA  1.7 million; Australia: 20000  (Canada not listed).

At 10:48 AM 4/16/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I've always found it curious that North Americans are reluctant to learn a
>second language.  In Hungary, and Europe generally, people don't have the
>same hang-ups about learning other languages.

        I don't find it curious at all. It is the question of geography and
the widespread nature of the English language. One learns a language for
practical reasons: to be able to use it somewhere. That is rather hard for a
person from North America. Moreover, even if it weren't the knowledge of
English is widespread. There is always someone who speaks much better
English than you do German, for example. For people whose mother tongue has
very limited use outside the country (or none, actually) learning another
language is of utmost importance. That is the case with Hungarians, Danes,
Swedes, Finns, Dutch, and many, many more smaller people of Europe. ESB

It is well to remember that the first Romanian language books were printed in K
olozsvar (Cluj) in the 16th century. In the pre-WW I years of this century the 
push was for general schooling and cutting of illiteracy and a realisation that
 knowledge of Hungarian and German was the way to get ahead. At the same time R
omanian teachers colleges were set up, which unfortunately became foci of natio
nalistic separatist propaganda. In many ways it parallelled similar moves throu
ghout Europe. It was ineffectual because of creeping immigration from the econo
mically and culturally more backward Regat whence agricultural and forestry wor
kers kept coming over the mountains forming a pool of low-paid workers who spok
e only Romanian and were for the most part illiterate.

Regards
Denes 



----------
From:  E.S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Thursday, 17 April 1997 3:58
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: from the Szabadsag

At 07:16 AM 4/15/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I don't agree with the limitations on Hungarian in Romania.  However, when
>we were in charge, didn't we have a "magyarization" policy?  Why are we so
>shocked now?

        First of all, most of the Romanians of Transylvania didn't speak a
word of Hungarian because they attended Romanian elementary schools in
Romanian-inhabited villages. A policy of so-called "magyarization" was very
short-lived in Hungary and was totally ineffectual, especially in case of
the Romanian population. In fact, their numbers instead of diminishing grew.
For example between 1900 and 1910 their absolute number grew from 2,798,559
to 2,948,186. At the same time the number of Germans and Slovaks diminished.
        Second, I guess the reason that we are shocked now is that almost
one hundred years went by and forced denationalization is not an acceptable
concept nowadays. The European Union doesn't look upon such activities
favorably. ESB

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, A.J.Vadasz in his 4th posting about the HTMH (The
Office of Trans-Border Hungarians) writes:

> The HTMH 1996 annual report also treats Hungarians "in the West". I don't
> plan a detailed description, just a few of the highlights.
[...]
> An estimate of Hungarians and descendants: Austria 75000; Germany
> 120000; Israel 200000; UK 28000; Switzerland 20000; France 35000;
> 120000; Israel 200000; UK 28000; Switzerland 20000; France 35000;
> USA  1.7 million; Australia: 20000  (Canada not listed).

I am not surprised that they do not know about Hungarian-Canadians. One of
the "Fact Sheets on Hungary", issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs
last year on "The 1956 Hungarian revolution", also ignored Canada as a
destination for refugees. When in fact, one out of every five who left
Hungary after the revolution ende d up in Canada. Peter Hidas last year gave
us the exact numbers based Canadian Immigration data as 35,914. The
associates of "1956 Institute" (Csaba Be'ke's and Ja'nos Rainer) only list
the USA (80,000), UK (22,000) Germany (16,000), Switzerland (14,000) and
France (13,000). I suspect these "historians" do not make a distinction
between Canada and the USA. This "document" was sent to us by HTMH.

It is not difficult to find how Canadians can be considered Hungarian
origin. A Canadian statistics are very good of defining ethnic origin.. For
example the 1986 census results can be summarized as follows:

                            Single    Multiple   Total
                           ---------------------------
Hungarian Ethnic Origin:   100,725    112,975    213,700
Hungarian Mother Tongue:    72,905      8,960     81,865

I had the opportunity to scan all the material the HTMH sent to the KMSZ
(Hungarian-Canadian Federation) with a covering letter dated Dec. 13, 1996
and signed by Dr Erika To:rzso:k and Laszlo' La'body. In my opinion
they wasted the money for compiling and mailing such an outdated useless
material.

Barna Bozoki

Thank you Barna.  This is very interesting indeed.  Your post reminded me
of something.

During 56, a structure in Montreal was established - I believe by the name
of  Macdonald College, situated on Bai D'urfee(sp) (nothing to do with the
golden gates).  I have heard several people insinuate, that it's founder(s)
were key advocators of "countless" Hungarian Medical Student refugees.  It
was also insinuated, that it's main function was to establish housing for
the many medical student refugees landing in Montreal, specifically from
Hungary.  Does anyone have any factual information on this?  Would dearly
love to hear them.

Regards,
Aniko

>I've always found it curious that North Americans are reluctant to learn
a
>second language.  In Hungary, and Europe generally, people don't have
the
>same hang-ups about learning other languages.
>
>Joe Szalai

I fully agree.  Regarding Montreal, you are right, I also found it
ridiculous when I came to Canada that the English didn't want to learn
French, but this is now the opposite.  The English all sent their
children to French immersion while the French can't send their kids to
English school.

Agnes