In article >, matze says...
>
>>ace226 ) wrote:
>>: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? I was wondering 
because
> 
>>: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a 
>>: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?
>
>Hi everybody,
>
>this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:
>
>1. The descent of the word "German" is simple: The Roman scientist Tacitus 
descr
>ibed the Germanic tribes as
>"Germanae" (maybe he used another case (-: ), derived from the Germanic word 
"ge
>rman" which means "spear
>man". BTW when Germans say "Germane" they include the English, Dutch and 
Scandin
>avians.
>
>2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people".
 
A
>lso "duits" (Dutch) and
>"tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".
>
>3. The Germanic people that happened to live closest to the French called 
themse
>lf "alamans", "alemannen" or
>alike. That's where the French, Spanish and Portuguese word is from. Today we 
ca
>ll the Swabian (SW Germany),
>Alsatian (that's in France) and Swiss-German dialects "Alemannisch". 
>But don't ask me what "ala" means. There are languages where "ala" means cave 
or
> grotto (the Baltic
>languages) - thus, is the alaman a cave man? Or is the ralation to "oel" 
(Scandi
>navian languages) and "ale"
>(English) an indication to the beer consumption of the Swiss? ((-: 
>Who knows more, I'm only guessing here. 
>
>4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians 
"nemski" 
>(or similar) and even
>Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?
>
>Pleas follow up or mail in English.
>
>Bye, Matze
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Mathias Muench-Dalstein   Email: 
>World Wide Web:     http://www.rewi.hu-berlin.de/~matze/
>Humboldt-University of Berlin (Germany),  Faculty of Law
>
Dear Mathias,

The word "nemets" [=German] in most Slavic languages is quite puzzling.  It is 
first attested in an Old Church Slavic compilation of Byzantine texts, entitled
"Pchela" [=The Bee], dating from the end of the 9th century.  It appears in the
sentence, "Agesilaos reche, njakto pereskok priide k nemu iz njemets." (p. 24).
Translated, this is:  "Agesilaos said that one of the foreigners sought refuge 
with him."  Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (905-959 A.D.) used this Slavic 
word in reference to Germanic tribesmen ("nemitzoi") in his De cerim. 2, 398.

While in most contemporary Slavic dialects the root *nEm- generally means 
"mute" (unable to speak), dialectal data and the Church Slavic literature 
strongly suggest that that root also means "incomprehensible for the listener",
and, by extension, "speaking a foreign language".  Example, from the Russian 
Primary (or Laurentian) Chronicle for 1096 A.D.:  "Jugra zhe ljudie est' jazyk 
njem."  [= But the Hungarians are people from a foreign(-speaking) nation.]

There have been unsuccessful efforts to connect the common Slavic ethnonym with
 
Latin "Nemeti" (a Western Germanic tribal name appearing in Pliny and Tacitus).
 
Likewise rejected is a derivation from the Greek "nemw" [=to graze], "nomas"
[=nomad], equating the Slavic tribal name with an unattested Greek word meaning
 
"wanderer".  

Ilya V. Talev

As far as the Kozgaz Egyetem, I don't have the address, but if you can use a
web browser and get to pages on Hungary, you're sure to find it.  For
English-speaking programs, the Council on International Exchange has programs
at the Economics Univ.  They are located in New York; tel:  212-661-1414,
E-mail:  .  Hope this helps.  CIEE's programs are
accredite by various universities here in the US.
--Shannon Morris

In >  (Attila Balla) wrote:
>I was under the impression that the english as late as this century robbed 
>stole and raped the world and was the giver away of nations and destroyer
>of cultures at a global scale. Attila was a boyscout compared to the world
>rape of the english whose culture was stollen from others. The only
>contribution the english made to this universe is the perfection of how to
>steel and look good at the same time 

Attila, be a good bloke, and fetch me a spot of tea, please.
Oh, by the way, is my tie on straight?



-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article > Mathias Muench-Dalstein <matze> 
writes:

> 2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people"
. Also "duits" (Dutch) and
> "tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".

A German friend of mine told me that Deutsch comes from the name of the 
tribe Teutons - of course, their name might come from "thiut" in its turn.

> 4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemsk
i" (or similar) and even
> Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?

The Bulgarian word for German (language) is precisely "nemski", while the
word for German (man) is "nemets" (stress on the first syllable for both
words.) The etymology is very straightforward - the word "nem" means 
numb, speechless in Western Bulgarian dialects. In literary language the
word is "nyam", plural "nemi". The plural of German (people) is "nemtsi" - 
only one letter difference. Same thing in Russian - Germans = "nemtsy", 
numb = "nemy".

Probably the speech of the German tribes was so incomprehensible to 
Slavic people that they decided Germans could not speak at all. Given
the general barking sound of German, this is a very possible hypothesis. 
Of course, it might be all wrong, and it certainly does not explain why 
Hungarians would use that word. Maybe it is a name of some other obscure 
Germanic tribe, after all.  

I have been interested in the origin of the word Austria, as used in most
countries to designate the state whose own citizens call \"Osterreich. Why
is it called a "State to the East", when it is in fact to the South from
Germany? Also, why do Checks call Austria "Rakousko"?

I would appreciate any information.

--daniel

Article #28878 (Tue Nov 21 1995):
From:  (Dan Pop)
Subject: Re: Quebec and/or Transylvania

In >  (Matyas ) writes:
>On the other hand the main issue wasn't (again) who got what from who, but 
>Romanian's attitude towards its minorities (as compared to Canada).

Dan Pop wrote:
>Canada being a federal state, it is incorrect to consider the Quebecois
>a Canadian minority. They form the majority in their own province, which
>has its own government and so on.

You continue to evade Matyas' pertinent question which concerns "Romania's
attitude towards its minorities (as compared to Canada)." 

What does the fact that Canada is a federal state have to do with the
consideration of the Quebecois as a minority?

Matyas was not asking about the minorities in Quebec, he was asking about
the minorities in Canada. Francophones in Canada are a minority. (Indeed,
Anglos are now a minority in Canada. There is no particular "ethnic" group
in Canada which exceeds 50% of the population. Canada may well be the only
country in the world without a majority group.)

There are any number of communities scattered across Ontario, Manitoba,
parts of Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, where Francophones are the majority.
It has been that way from before Canada was official. Penetanguishene was a
town on the edge of the Muskokas where I had worked for a summer in 1965,
and they had their own francophone schools. Francophone culture has
florished in northern Ontario. CANO was a popular "rock/art" group that I
worked with during the 1970's in Sudbury, and they produced a wonderful
blend of Franco/Anglo expressions. Their range was wide and none exclusive
and this group gained wide recognition of their work in Canada. There were
no impediments placed in their way.

The Quebecois have the right to be served in French by the federal
government anywhere in Canada, including a small town in the interior of BC
which consists largely of Anglos, Sihks and a smattering of Doukhabors.
Bilingualism is officially promoted across the country. All products must
be bilingual everywhere. The province of Ontario has set up a French only
tv network for the Francophone minority in Ontario.

I can walk down a street in Toronto and see Jamaican flags outside a roti
shop, flags of other nations here and there. Nobody fears any official
action because of this, unlike the silliness in Romania. The federal
government has not taken any action to officially declare that all persons
residing in Quebec will be called Quebecers, and not the politically
correct Quebecois or the derogatory Frogs, unlike the tigani-not-Roma
silliness in Romania.

This is some manifestation of Canada's attitude towards its Francophone
(Quebecois) minority, and its other minorities.

Matyas wants to know about Romania's attitude towards its minorities as
compared to Canada. Continually evading the question makes you look like a
fool Dan.

>Any comparison between Romania and
>Canada is pointless. If you don't get my point, try to compare Hungary
>with Canada (or with Switzerland). Such comparisons are equally pointless.

Why not compare countries?
Why is this pointless?
Compare the infant mortality rate between Canada, Romania, Hungary,
Switzerland. It is not pointless -- the country with the highest rate
should take action to lower it, and before taking action, take a look at
those countries with a lower rate and perhaps learn something. That's the
point.

Compare the economies of various countries. Who does better, worse & why?
It is not a fruitless, pointless exercise.

Compare how different countries treat their minorities. Who does better,
worse & why? Why is this pointless?

Is Romania such an island unto itself that it should compare to nothing
else on earth? This is a ludicrous posture to take.

Your claim that any comparisons are pointless, is nothing more than a
tactic of avoidance, of not looking at the social facts on the ground and
giving Matyas an open and honest answer.



-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article > Daniel Nikovski,
 writes:
>A German friend of mine told me that Deutsch comes from the name of the 
>tribe Teutons - of course, their name might come from "thiut" in its turn.

This word also went through an interesting transformation:
Thiut ---> Tót 

Tót means Slovak in Hungarian.

>> 4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nems
ki"
(or similar) and even
>> Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?

>Of course, it might be all wrong, and it certainly does not explain why 
>Hungarians would use that word. 

It is borrowed from Old Slavic.

Tamás

Sziasztok mindanyian!

Uj vagyok a soc.culture.magyar newsgroup olvasasahoz es csak elore
koszonok mindenkinek.  Az omri-l listan mar reg rajta vagyok es
onnan figyelem hogy mitortenik kis Magyarorszaggal es Erdejel meg
a tobbi regi magyar teruletekkel.  Meg kell mondjam jobb az elet
itten Californiaban, de azert vannak rokonaim "othon" is, es
figyelem a dolgokat.

Sziasztok,

-tibor


-- 
/*******************************************************************
* A3000,68030-20Mhz,            http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~tibor/
* 18Mb,1Gig,Emplant,NetBSD            email: 
*******************************************************************/

Mee too...


-- 
/*******************************************************************
* A3000,68030-20Mhz,            http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~tibor/
* 18Mb,1Gig,Emplant,NetBSD            email: 
*******************************************************************/

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>> 4. ... why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemski"
>>(or similar) and even
>> Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?
>
>It is borrowed from Old Slavic.

What was borrowed from old Slavic?  The word "nemet", or the word
"nema"?  Since "nema" means speechless in Hungarian, so one could also
assume the Hungarian name for Germans (nemet) also has its root in the
Hungarian word for "speechless" (nema).  BTW, Americans, the Hungarian
word "nemet" is pronounced exactly like the last name of Joe Nameth, but
no "th" sound; just "t".  And if you drop even that last "t", you have
the right pronounciation for "nema".

Of course, the word "nema" probably was borrowed from Slavic in the
first place.

As to the name of Austria, my guess is that it is a derivative of 
"Ost Reich" (Estern Empire), just as the Hungarian word for Austrians,
the word "osztrak".  I would also venture to guess that the Slovak word
for Austria (Rakousko) has its root in the word "Reich".

Joe Pannon

>>: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? 
>>I was wondering because
>
>>: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a
>>: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?
>
>Hi everybody,
>
>this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:...

  There were very interesting explanations of words "deutsch",
"german", "allemand" and "nemetz". I just want to mention that
finns and estonians use the word "saksa" for the same purpose, or
"Saksamaa" for Germany. The origin is quite obvious, isn't it ?

-- 



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Oxana Smirnova ( http://www.quark.lu.se/~oxana )

  Lund University
  Department of Elementary Particle Physics
  Professorsgatan 1, S 223 63 Lund, Sweden
  Tel. +46 (46) 222 76 99  Fax. +46 (46) 10 47 09

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Liviu Iordache ) wrote:
:  (Dan Pop) wrote:

: >It's far easier for them to compile English history books than 
: >Romanian history books.  And I have all the reasons to believe they
: >would prefer British authors to Romanian ones.

: >But if you can prove that they used Romanian sources...

: You can consider that a proved fact.

Well, if you say so... we all do.
But are you sure that all the books that dismiss the daco-roman continuity
did not used Austro-Hungarian sources ?

: almost without exception any Romanian history textbook should have on
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
Of course this applies only to romanians. In fact to "any romanian".
We must be some kind of inferior nation or culture.

: the first page, as a reminder, the following quote from Cioran:

: "...the myths of a nation are its vital truths. They might not
: coincide with the truth; this is of no importance. The supreme
: sincerity of a nation towards itself manifests itself in the rejection
: of self-criticism, in vitalization through its own illusions. And,
: does a nation seek the truth? A nation seeks power."

And again the romanians have a long tradition of seeking power.
Throughout their history they had many empires and colonies and all
the nations of Europe feared the romanian "conquistadores".

Yes, the myths could not coincide with the truth. Especially when they
are artificially imposed. But when they are genuine (for instance when you
can find traces of it in folklore) they must tell something.

A romanian peasant from Transilvania once told me the following joke.
I reproduce it even if it's not very kind with romanians either.

There were for children. A german, a jew, a hungarian and a romanian.
The german manufactures a wonderful toy. The jew go and asks him if
he doesn't want to sell it to him. The hungarian one tells to the
romanian: "Let's kill him and take his toy".
The romanian replies: "Well, no. Lets wait until he get asleep and
then we will take it".

: Liviu Iordache

Cristian Alb

T. Kocsis > wrote:

>>the alleged Hun-Magyar dynastic continuity it's neither a historical
>>fact, nor a myth without any basis in facts. It is just a plain
>>misconception. There is no connection, whatsoever, between the 5th
>>century Attila the Hun and 9th century Arpad. Period.

>This continuity claim is not fixed to the Carpathian basin.

It makes no difference. Outside or inside the Pannonian basin, there
was never a connection between the Finno-Ugric Magyars or the Turkish
Onogurs and Attila the Hun

> Actually Atilla, Attila, Etzel... organized the
>most of the steppian tribes around that time for his inva-
>sion.

Yes but the steppe was always a large area and no evidence points to
the fact that either the Magyars or the Onogurs were part of Attila
the Hun's federation.

> According to some historical evidences the Magyar
>tribes of that time were already steppian tribes, so they might
>have taken part in Attila's ventures. 

Now, that is an extremely thin "might."

>The conquest-time Magyr tribes were strongly
>turkicized, certain Hungarian historians even assumes that
>those tribes were bilingual and the leadership were rather
>Turk ethnically then Magyar.

Sure, but what that has to do with Almus, father of Arpad, who never
claimed to be a descendent of Attila the Hun ?

>And it is also true that the
>our old tribe leaders thought that they were the ancestors
>of Attila. 

Which Attila are you talking about, and in what chronicle was this
claim recorded?  

>So, it might have happened, but - i am sure - no one will
>be able to prove it because the birth and death certificates
>were lost when the Registry Office burnt down in Attila's
>woodcastle by  Tisza river.... :) :)

Maybe ;-) Anyhow, Gesta of Anonymus Belae Regis clearly rejects this
possibility.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

Mathias Muench-Dalstein (matze) wrote:
: >ace226 ) wrote:
: >: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? I was wondering beca
use 
: >: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a 
: >: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?

: Hi everybody,

: this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:

: 1. The descent of the word "German" is simple: The Roman scientist Tacitus de
scribed the Germanic tribes as
: "Germanae" (maybe he used another case (-: ), derived from the Germanic word 
"german" which means "spear
: man". BTW when Germans say "Germane" they include the English, Dutch and Scan
dinavians.

: 2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people"
. Also "duits" (Dutch) and
: "tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".

: 3. The Germanic people that happened to live closest to the French called the
mself "alamans", "alemannen" or
: alike. That's where the French, Spanish and Portuguese word is from. Today we
 call the Swabian (SW Germany),
: Alsatian (that's in France) and Swiss-German dialects "Alemannisch". 
: But don't ask me what "ala" means. There are languages where "ala" means cave
 or grotto (the Baltic
: languages) - thus, is the alaman a cave man? Or is the ralation to "oel" (Sca
ndinavian languages) and "ale"
: (English) an indication to the beer consumption of the Swiss? ((-: 
: Who knows more, I'm only guessing here. 

: 4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemsk
i" (or similar) and even
: Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?

: Pleas follow up or mail in English.

   I belive that the eastern slavick word for the Germans, "Nemtsi" and 
its all derivations come from the word "nem" which means mute, a person 
who can not speak.  It has to do with the fact that the germans did not 
speak old slavic, in other words could not speak. That is the stori I 
know of, but there could be another explanation.  About the Hungarians - 
they could have borowed the word from the surounding slavic population 
and adopted it to their language.

: Bye, Matze

  Georgi Karadjov

: --------------------------------------------------------
: Mathias Muench-Dalstein   Email: 
: World Wide Web:     http://www.rewi.hu-berlin.de/~matze/
: Humboldt-University of Berlin (Germany),  Faculty of Law

 --------------------------------------------------------------
 : Come play Realms of Despair! telnet://realms.game.org:4000 :
 --------------------------------------------------------------

 (Cours 6412) wrote:

>But are you sure that all the books that dismiss the daco-roman continuity
>did not used Austro-Hungarian sources ?

Actually, most of them use Romanian primary sources. Moreover, in
matters of politics the Austrians often  used the Romanians as a
counterweight against the Hungarian centrifugal tendency. The Uniate
Church and  "Scoala Ardeleana" are relevant examples for supporting
this claim. So, why suspect the Austrians of pro-Hungarian bias?

>: almost without exception any Romanian history textbook should have on
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>Of course this applies only to romanians. In fact to "any romanian".
>We must be some kind of inferior nation or culture.

Let me back off here for a moment. No, the statement does not apply
only to Romanian history textbooks. Hungarian ones are also good
candidates. We are not an inferior nation, we are just a very young
one, suffering yet of those  inherent childhood diseases:
nationalistic illusions, rejection of self-criticism, etc.  Somebody
must have said that before I did.

>: "...the myths of a nation are its vital truths. They might not
>: coincide with the truth; this is of no importance. The supreme
>: sincerity of a nation towards itself manifests itself in the rejection
>: of self-criticism, in vitalization through its own illusions. And,
>: does a nation seek the truth? A nation seeks power."[E.Cioran]

>Yes, the myths could not coincide with the truth. Especially when they
>are artificially imposed. But when they are genuine (for instance when you
>can find traces of it in folklore) they must tell something.

Unfortunately, no genuine popular tradition points toward our Dacian
heritage. At least this was C.Daicoviciu's opinion. 

>A romanian peasant from Transilvania once told me the following joke.
[bad-Hungarian vs. maverick-Romanian joke deleted]

You want a recipe for Hungarian "goulash." Here it goes:
First, one must steal two chickens....:-)

Liviu Iordache

In >  (Matyas ) writes:

>In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
>|> In >  (Matyas ) writes:
>|> 
>|> >On the other hand the main issue wasn't (again) who got what from who, but
 
>|> >Romanian's attitude towards its minorities (as compared to Canada).
>|> 
>|> Canada being a federal state, it is incorrect to consider the Quebecois
>|> a Canadian minority.  They form the majority in their own province, which
>|> has its own government and so on.  Any comparison between Romania and
>|> Canada is pointless.  If you don't get my point, try to compare Hungary
>|> with Canada (or with Switzerland).  Such comparisons are equally pointless.
>|> 
>
>able to argue about anything else... Your explanation about the federal states
>gets very boring and especially in this case make no sense: according to it
>a non-federative state may treat its minories any way it likes to

There is no logical way to derive your conclusion from my statement.
It was just pointing out that what works in a federal state doesn't
necessary work in a non-federal state (or even in another federal state,
e.g. the USA).  A solution which works well somewhere might be a complete
failure somewhere else.

You may or may not agree with this, but this doesn't mean that my point 
was wrong.

>(well it may be your opinion, but who cares).

If you can't maintain the debate at a minimal decency level, I will retire.
If you don't care about opinions which disagree with yours, what's the
point of having a dialogue/debate?
>
>|> >And this is
>|> >an important issue because Romania promised a lot when it was given Transy
lvania.
>|> 
>|> Unlike Hungary which didn't promise anything to the Romanians and didn't
>|> give them any rights in 1940, despite the fact that they were the majority
>|> in Northern Transylvania.
>
>Even if you abstract from the context there is a tremendous difference between
>not keeping a made promise and not promising.

Indeed.  A partially kept promise is much better than not promising
and not giving anything at all.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

My Dear Friends ,

Transilvania (Erdely, this for other people to read and fully understand)
belongs to Romania .(period , no exclamation points , not needed...)

Val

In article >, "Zoli Fekete,
 keeper of hungarian-faq" > writes:
>  There used to be a #hungary (or perhaps #hungarian, I don't have my notes
> handy) channel, and occasionally #hix, too - although they were quite
> inactive when I checked out. There's also a similar interactive chat
> service called ARENA available via telnet hix.hungary.com, as described in
> the updated hungarian-faq (due to come out later today). 
> 
> --
>  Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
>  <'finger '> 
>  NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
> header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!
> 
I didn't see the original posting, but it seems to me that someone is looking
for a hungarian speaking irc channel... there is #magyar, sometimes with >40
users on the cannel, you're welcome!

Gergo"