Prof. Hidas wrote:

>Arpad entered  the Carpathian basin   in late 895.  The Conquest was a
>two-prong one. Some of the tribes, led by Arpad, crossed the Carpathian at
>the North-East, other tribes took Transylvania.

I am interested in this latter part for I often read the Romanians
claiming that Transylvania was only taken in St. Stephen's time.  What's
the basis of their claim?

> Certain historian claim
>that there were already Hungarians in the area but they do not claim that
>they were there when the Huns were in the area in the 5th century.

I guess you are alluding to the dual conquest theory of Prof. Gyula
Laszlo.  How is it generally received by other serious historians of the
period?

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

>My father is about to retire early (he is 62) and would like to move
>to Hungary as he was born there and has family there.
>
>Please could someone tell me if....
>
>1) It is possible to claim unemployment benefit from Britain while
>living in Hungary? How can this be done?

Unemployment benefits after a voluntary, early retirement?  I would be
surprised by that even if he stayed in UK.  Somehow I never thought
that unemployment benefits were invented to supplant retirement income,
but what do I know?

>3) How will he transfer money from Britain to Hungary?

On the Hungarian side there would be no problem, I'm sure.
>
>4) Does he have to become a Hungarian citizen again?

Unless he requested his release from citizenship, he still is one.
One does not lose it automatically when gaining another one.

Joe Pannon

Isn't unemployment benefit to be collected on a weekly basis and in person?
In the eighties I encountered several unemployed British teachers of English
in Hungary who drew on their unemployment benefits once they spent some time/
vacation in England. Nora

There is definitely an arrangement for retired people,
I know somebody, who moved back from the South of England.
(She did not settle well, she returned to England,
though she had no family in Hungary).
There are thousands of retired UK people living in
Spain/France/etc.  I don't know about unemployment benefit
being claimed from abroad.
I know a couple of retired people who spend 6 months (summer)
in Hungary, and the rest in England since the 80s, there is definitely
an arrangement for pensions.    The UK state pension won't go as far
 in Hungary now, as it did in the 80s... especially if
the person plans to live in Budapest.

Lengyel Sandor writes:
>I would agree with Toth Laci's letter,but for two things.<
1.The fate of the ethnic hungarians outside Hungary,cannot be ignored.
2.We living outside Hungary,cannot do too much for Hungary's future.Our
advise,if there is any,rightly or wrogly usually ignored.  .... the only
thing we can do effectivelly is lobbying.

Sandor is absolutily right.We should and must carry on with lobbying for the
interest of hungarians outside of Hungary.I also agree with Bela Liptak's
statement,when he states:But I also know that reform must be rooted in
spiritual renewal,in faith and solidarity.
I may have sent my letter in,in the wrong time.At this time the topic,which
is presented in Hungary's Forum is correct.I will come back to" Hungary need
vision of hope" in a later date.
Toth Laci

II.
Attila and I, we settle down on the gallery of the Aula, this large Assembly
Hall of the Technical University. The hall is ornate, covered with marble and
full of the busts of famous former professors, Nobel laureates, people like
Leo Szilard, John von Neu mann, Theodore von Karman, and former presidents,
whom we call rectors.
        Did you know that the majority of them were Jews?  asks Attila,
noticing that I am looking at the busts, and after some hesitation adds -
 just as the majority of Rakosi's government or of the AVH officers?   A
talented people!  - I declare.
      There must be a couple of thousand students here, but none of us are
really paying attention. There is a constant murmur in the hall. It is like
any other meeting in the Communist world. They talk at us and our only
defense is: not to listen.
       Downstairs, on the main floor of the Aula, near the microphone, are
the two Rectors of this dual university, Laszls Gillemot and Tibor Cholnoky,
some professors, the Party Secretary, Party officials and the leaders of the
Communist youth organiza tion, the DISZ. It is the DISZ which convened the
meeting. In their uniform of blue jackets, white shirts and red neckties, the
leaders of DISZ look like a special breed of penguins or booby birds,. They
are the ones, who called this meeting to preempt the spread of MEFESZ, this
new, non-Communist student association, which was formed last Saturday in
Szeged.
      Suddenly, they seem to care a lot about us. They talk about special
train passes for students, cheaper text books, better food and housing. They
do all the talking, we do not speak up. We never do. This is their show, they
do the talking.
       It is about 3 PM. I have spend the previous hour to scrape off the
rust of my  gold  ring, which cost me 36 Forints and must have had some
copper in its heritage, because it is turning green. I spit, I rub, and am
s, one can tell from the applause if the recommendation was popular.
      The first few speakers concentrate on student matters. One suggests
that English, French and German be taught instead of Russian, the other
proposes that Marxist and Leninist subjects should no longer be compulsory.
In the meanwhile people arrive from other universities, offices and
factories. By now the whole city knows that something unusual is happening at
the Technical University. The speeches are becoming more fiery, more
passionate, the demands broader in scope and more political.
       My feelings border on euphoria. I start to believe, that I matter,
that what I think, what we think, makes a difference, that our future is in
our own hands. In a few seconds we have been converted into patriots. This
sounds corny, yet it feels great to know that your life has a purpose, and
now my life does. All I want is to serve my motherland. I want to make my
countrymen free and happy. The euphoria does not last long, it is followed by
fear and self-doubt. Zeal and enthusiasm is no substitute for experience!
What if we do something stupid? How do we know what is the right thing to do?
       Almost as in answering me, I hear the next speaker introducing
himself:  I am Jszsef Szilagyi  - he is an evening student and he works with
the reform Communist politician Imre Nagy. I start listening very closely:
 What you are doing is not illegal! The Hungarian Constitution gives you the
right of free speech and the right to petition your government. It is not
only your right, it is your duty to articulate your concerns. And it is the
duty of the government to respond to your concerns.
       After Szilagyi, (who after the Revolution was hanged), the writer
Piter Kuczka takes the microphone:  Your Party Secretary was lying to you.
Your duty today is not to withdraw into your studies. Today you have a higher
duty. The workers of Poznan are on strike, Warsaw is surrounded by tanks.
Today you must show your solidarity, you must support the Polish workers, you
must support the people who are fighting for all of us.
       By now we have started scribbling down the demands which were approved
by the assembly. We write on regular notebook pages, Ede Nimethy, Ivan Szabs,
Jancsi Danner, Bandi Nemcsik, Imre Mics and others. We are trying to follow
the example of the young leaders of the last great Hungarian revolution, the
example of those, who in 1848 condensed the demands of the nation into 12
concise points.
       It must have been about 7 PM when a shy student with a strong stutter
came to the microphone. His stammer makes his already quiet voice, barely
audible:  C-c-could t-t-the R-r-russians l-l-leave?  he squeezes out with
tremendous effort. The response is undescribable. First there is deadly
silence and then the 3,000, may be 4,000 people in the Aula, rise to their
feet and the ovation seems to go on forever. We just can't believe it:
finally somebody dared to ask the question which was on all of our minds, but
we did not dare to ask it. First, mixed with the applause and then slowly
overtaking it, a rallying cry is growing, gets stronger, louder and finally
deafening:  Ruszkis get out! Ruszkis get out!
         It is 7:30 PM. We stand on the speakers platform around the
microphone. The Party officials, the DISZ people, Tibor Cholnoky the rector
and the University officials are in a group to the right. Behind them the
officers of the Military Department. They are as astonished as we are. Now
the Party Secretary comes to the microphone. Her voice is ominous. She tells
us that the meeting is closed. That anybody who stays will be participating
in an illegal gathering and the penalty for that is expulsion. Then she
marches out. She is followed by the penguins and the official press. Only one
newspaper reporter, a red headed young man from the paper  Free Youth  dares
to stay.
       To our surprise Colonel Marian and the officers of the Military
Department, Rector Cholnoky and a few professors also stay. It is remarkable,
but expulsion or not, none of the students seem to be leaving.
         Now a new speaker comes to the microphone:  Let us take our demands
to the radio  - he suggests. One of our young assistant professors, Istvan
Jankovich has a tiny Italian car, a Topolino. He offers to take a delegation
of three. The radio is on the other side of the Danube. It must be around
8:30 PM when they return. The censors at the Radio are willing to broadcast a
news bulletin, but only if we deleted the most critical demands, dealing with
the Russians, Poland, free elections, freedom of the press and the formation
of a new government under Imre Nagy. Because of the refusal of the censors,
our delegation returned.
         In the meanwhile trucks with worker's delegations are arriving from
the surrounding factories. The mood in the Aula is becoming angrier. The time
is past 9 PM. I have already eaten all the bread crumbs that I could find in
the pockets of both my trousers and my olive corduroy jacket. Long gone is
even the memory of the boiled kale which I had for lunch. Now an other
speaker suggests that we go to the radio right away, all of us, the 4-5 or by
now possibly 6,000 of us.  They refused a delegation of three. See what they
do with a delegation of 6,000!  - the speaker asks. The acclamation that
follows seems to eliminate the need for further debate. It seems that we are
going to do just that, march to the radio right away.
      The meeting seems to be over, people are collecting their things,
getting ready to leave, when the officers of the Military Department, whom I
have almost forgotten, who just stood to the side for hours, start walking
toward the microphone. The tumult in the Assembly Hall comes to a standstill.
All eyes are on the department head: colonel Marian.
      He is a short, dark man of about 35. Naturally he, is a Communist and
he is also Jewish, as are many people in authority. It seems that just as the
German occupiers picked German Hungarians to run the country for them, the
Russians choose mostly Jewish Hungarians. But I have the gut feeling, that
Marian is one with whom they goofed. He seems to be one of us. He is like
Imre Nagy, a Communist, but not a traitor and certainly not a fanatic.
      He is a peasant's son from Transylvania (a part of Hungary, which was
given to Roma nia in 1945,) where there was no anti-semitism, where it made
no difference if you were a Jewish-Hungarian or a Calvinist one. On the other
hand, now, as he is walking to the microphone, I do not know what to expect.
As I am lowering the microphone to match his 5 feet something stature, I am
silently praying to God:  Make him call us anything, but Comrades! Don't let
him call us Comrades!
      His first words are:  My Sons!  Almost half of the students are girls,
but this time we all know, that he used the right address, the only possible
address.  My life is not more valuable than yours. I too am first a Hungarian
and everything else comes only after that. But I am older than you, and I
know this regime better. I will not allow you to walk into the claws of the
AVH in the dark of the night. (The AVH was the Hungarian secret police, the
equivalent of the German Gestapo or the Russian KGB.) No, we will march in
the daylight tomorrow. We will march with the proper permissions. We will not
break any laws and if we do a good job tonight, tomorrow the whole capital
will march with us, and then, I will lead you!
       Suddenly I feel completely relieved. This is what I was waiting for.
This is what I needed: somebody who knows what to do, somebody who is both
smart and brave, some body I can trust. This was the moment when I decided,
that I will stick with colonel Marian.
       It was about 10 PM when our small group at the microphone decided to
let the meeting continue without us. We asked Bandi Nemcsik to take our
demands to Ivan Sandor, the editor of our paper,  The Future Engineer . Ivan
has both the guts and the shrewdness to get it printed by tomorrow. Next, we
went to Tibor Cholnoky and asked for his permission to copy the 14 demands
using the stencil duplicators of the university. He refused. He would not
dare to take responsibility for something like that. (After the Revolution he
was fired anyway, together with Laszls Gillemot, the other rector of this
dual university of engineers and architects.)
         So what do we do now? The demands and the announcement of tomorrow's
demonstration must be duplicated. How do we do that? At this point a young,
blond assistant professor of chemistry, whom we called Kati  Sz ke , (Sz ke
in Hungarian means  Blond ,) who's real name was Kati Nemes, comes over to
us:  Listen: I can show you where the stencil room is and if you force the
door open, I can teach you the rest. I have been using those copiers to
reproduce my homework assignments and tests.  Kati is young, beautiful and
brave. We become instant friends, I trust her the same as I trust the
Colonel, whom she will join in jail after the Revolution.
        It took two minutes to break the lock. Kati Sz ke, Ede Nimethy,
Jancsi Danner and others get started on the job of reproducing the 14 demands
while I get on the telephone. It is Agnes's half sister, Judit who picks up
the phone:  No, she will not speak to you!   No, I know she will not! She
locked herself in her room and been crying all evening. How could you do such
a thing?  I stammer something about this meeting, I sputter about protecting
the microphone and about copying these demands, but as I listen to myself, I
sound stupid, I make no sense at all. I feel terrible. I beg Judit to
explain, I try to convince her that this is not just a meeting and finally
give up.  What happened?  - asks Attila.  Nothing, nothing.  - I reply very
quietly.
        It is nearing midnight when the demands and the announcement of
tomorrow's demonstration are finally printed. I go back to the Aula, pass out
a few copies while  keeping a dozen to myself. The meeting is still going on.
It is agreed that during the night we will spread the news of tomorrow's
demonstration. Gyuszi Perr has a motorcycle, so he and his little bride
Marika, the runner who was at yesterday's competition, will take the
announcement to Csepel, the largest industrial complex of Hungary. I will
alert the Agricul tural University of Gvdvll , where my brother Piter is a
student and will be back at 7 AM to be one of the MEFESZ guards at the gates.
Everybody has an assignment, we will not sleep much tonight.
       It is close to 1 AM when I leave the University. I catch the
completely empty #49 tram, but there is no connection on Raksczi Street. The
last train leaves at 1:20 AM, so I run all the way to the station. The train
is beginning to leave as I get on. I am dripping with sweat, the train is
unheated, I will have to thank my corduroy jacket, if I don't catch a cold.
       The train is empty. As I am walking home, all the dogs of Kerepes come
out to greet me. What a concert! It is past 2 AM on this Tuesday, the 23rd of
October, when, while Bukucs is jumping all over me, I try to quietly open the
creaking kitchen door. Memi left my supper on the stove. I start eating from
the stew-pan. Then I hear the stirring in the bedrooms, so I quickly get a
plate and continue stuffing myself with improved manners. While I eat, first
Memi appears, then Aptyi in his night-time beret, which keeps his bolding
scalp warm. Eventually Piter and Andris also join us in the kitchen.
       I read our demands to them, I read the announcement of tomorrow's
demonstration. As in the middle of the kitchen I announce, that we demand
this, and we demand that, Memi's expression is one of fear: fear that her son
has gone mad. Andris, who just woke up, thinks that I am telling about a
dream I had. Aptyi's eyes are wet. He knows. During the German occupation,
when he heard the nazi salute:  Victory or death , he would quietly mumble:
 To you?: definitely death! , and a few years later, just as quietly he would
reply to the Communist salute:  Freedom!  with  Yes, we could use some!
      When I hand the stencil copies of our announcements to Piter, he looks
skeptical, but takes them anyway:  Tomorrow there will be arrests, not
demonstrations!  - he says. While he speaks, I see flashbacks, I see the
scared kid from Szeged, I hear the trembling voice of Jancsi Danner as he
yells:  Let him speak  and I see colonel Marian as he slowly walks to the
speaker's stand, waits for me to lower the microphone, and then addresses us
by:  My Sons!
       No Piter, Stalin was wrong, when he asked: How many divisions does the
Pope have? It is axiomatic that colonies must disintegrate, that societies
built on lies must self- destruct. And we do not deserve freedom, if we don't
help ourselves. These are not my words, but those of President Eisenhower. He
said them, when he proclaimed the doctrine of self-liberation. Don't you
think they would help?
       Sure they would help themselves to our oil, if we had any. How stupid
can you get? It was Eisenhower's boss, Roosevelt who gave us to Stalin in the
first place. We were his birthday gift at Yalta. Whom are you kidding? The
rich don't give a damn about ideals, the only thing they care about is
getting richer!  - he says this with anger in his voice and I know he means
it.
       Come on. Rich people have a conscience too. Americans conceived the
Marshall plan, there were American volunteers fighting Franco in Spain.
Americans too have a heart, they too like to sleep at night. Besides, we are
not asking the Americans for anything! Tomorrow, there will be no clashes
with anybody, what we are holding is a peaceful demonstration with a legal
permit, which will be led by a Communist colonel.
        I went to bed at about 3 AM and got up at 5 AM to catch the 6:02.

>A little bit of correction in translation:
>
>>"buta magyar" (meaning "silly Hungarian")
>
>Slovak kids said of the Hungarian invading forces. The term "silly" is
>inaccurate. "Stupid" would be much better.
 Sorry I do not agree. May be to following coresponds better :
 butacska --> silly        (in some case it may be polite)
 buta     --> "not clever"
 hulye    --> stupid.
 I did not emphasize the way of motivation. They wanted to
 tell some very bad  words in Hungarian, but this was the maximum
 they could tell in Hungarian.

>You don't remember too well. The representatives of the vanquished countries
  I remember well what I was told, that is an other (hi)story how realistic
  it was.

>were not represented at the Paris Peace Conference. There were no German,
>Austrian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, or Turkish representatives either at the
>......
>(Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Serbia) didn't take active part in the
>proceedings but were present in the French capital and the heads of their
>delegations could present their views in front of the representatives of the
>Great Powers. But more importantly, they were in Paris during the
>negotiations and were often consulted by the committees which were working
>out the new borders.
  In a recent book (after 1990), "Hungary with no borderlines", I red :
  During the Paris Treaty the Hungarian representatives had been arrested
  and kept in a hotel room, while the Trianon counties reps. were free
  to consult with the Great Powers.

>>Wasn't it Zsazsa who said that even bad publicity is better than no
>>publicity?
>
>Might be so in Hollywood but hard to imagine the same in Washington.
 How about:
 Might be so in Hollywood but hard to imagine the same in MIDDLE-EUROPE,
 TRANSYLVANIA, BALKAN, etc. enless list.

According to Barna Bozoki, I was "unjustified" and "inconsiderate" when I
generalized about "the intellectual abilities of AMOSZ members." According to
Barna "We may criticize these people for their politics, but nobody has the
right to call them stupid. Most of them are highly intelligent, strong
people."

I beg to differ. The members of an organization which give a helping hand to
people like Erdey, Monus, and Szendi cannot be called highly intelligent.
People who support a far-right organization in Hungary, whose membership is
miniscule and which brings only shame to the country cannot be called highly
intelligent. People who support advocates of anti-semitism and international
conspiracies of Jews and/or Freemasons cannot be called highly intelligent.
If these people want to do something useful for Hungary, surely there are
better ways.

Eva Balogh

P.S. Suddenly I became aware of an older question of Joe Pannon's to which I
would like to respond now. Joe asks:

>We may not always agree
>with their tactics, but they could almost always ask the rest of us with
>credibility: "What have YOU done for Hungary lately?

Yes, I think so. I didn't pull out my money from Hungary and I didn't
panic-sell my stocks I got for my compensation coupons. I try to help Hungary
with my investments. Surely, this is more effective in the long run than some
useless suit against the World Bank and the IMF, organizations which want to
help Hungary to get on its feet economically.

>
> >re comments by Kadar Gyorgy:
> >Many commentators agree that the lack of recognition of group rights has for
> > some
> >time been a crucial ommission in international law.  But what is really
> lacking
>
> Would someone care to define group as opposed to say the set of people who
> dislike eating raw fish?
>
> I would have thought that groups such as religious institutions, corporate
> bodies, political parties &c&c are legally recognized entities distinct from
> both individuals and the state. They do enjoy protection under certain
> conditions such as proper constitution, accountability &c&c.
>
> Arbitrary sets on the other hand neither seek nor deserve protection. The
> privilege of protection must somehow be deserved by all other than
> individuals. That, I would think, is a fundamental difference.
>
> The mere identifiability of a group (ethnically or otherwise) is simply not
> sufficient for the enjoyment of such a scarce commodity as protection.
>
>Is your posting:

a. Provocation

b. Result of Plain Ignorance

c. Both of the Above


>
> -------------------------------------
> Name: tiha von ghyczy
> E-mail: 
> Date: 10/17/95
> Charlottesville, Va.
> -------------------------------------

According to Kadar Gyorgy:
>
to Kadar Gyorgy


QUIT WHINING

JACK GERGELY

>         Lectoris salutem!
>
>         t.wukitsch > noted:
>   "The many states who often violate group rights would somehow have to
>    be convinced to recognize group rights and even to agree to an
>    enforcement mechanism for group rights -- an unlikely proposition"
>
> Formulated this way I am "enforced - ;-)" to agree. And now without any
> <smiley> I sincerely thank you for your words.
> You pointed exactly to the heart of the problem:
>         In democratic countries group rights are naturally recognized,
> since group rights are deduced from individual rights. Even in the
> improbable case when the state is reluctant to recognize the collective
> rights of a group, the members of the group can find fora to appeal to,
> e.g. federal authorities in the USA, Brussel EU authorities in Europe,
> Hague international court, UN organs, public opinion approched through
> the news media, newspapers, TV talk-shows, etc.
>         In non-democratic  or less-democratic countries violations of
> r i g h t s   (no adjective!) are easily declared internal affairs of the
> state. When such isolated-looking violation cases show surprising
> similarities, and could be related to each other as violations of group
> rights, the state would be ready to point at the group as at the
> "enemies of the homeland" and "promoters of foreign interests".
>         A u t o n o m y  of churches and religious groups, of political
> parties, of trade unions, of any recognized groupings of citizens of a
> state is a tacit or expressed formulation of the recognition of group
> rights by the state (and by its citizens).  I t   e x i s t s.
>
>         The principle of subsidiarity (formulated first by the catholic
> church, but certainly  acceptable more universally) says something like
> this:
>         - any community should administer its own affairs, that is the
> affairs born inside and having action only inside that community without
> the interference of "higher" authorities (that is those responsible for
> the affairs of a wider community circle), and
>         - if any interference arrives from "higher" authorities, it may
> come only in the spirit of  h e l p i n g  to solve difficult or
> ambitious internal projects.
>         Example: the state can instigate or obstacle the developement of
> the soccer sport by helping to build or by ruining abandoned sport
> stadiums, but  why to bother about the colour of flags exposed in a
> functioning stadium?
>
>         So the heart of problem has much to do with the values of
> democracy...
>         My doubts can be reformulated like this:
>         Knowing that "many states who often violate group rights" can not
> be easily "convinced to recognize group rights",and
>         knowing, that the internationally dangerous conflicts in the
> former Yugoslavia and the former Soviet Union were partially caused by
> the denial of proper autonomies to (in these cases large) groups of
> citizens
>         why don't the democratic states defend their convictions by
> declaring collective rights and recognition of collective rights an
> important democratic value, and by trying to find out even enforcement
> mechanisms for defending such an important democratic value?
>
>         I hope, that Tihamer von Ghyczy can see better now, what I
> mean seriously by groups, that deserve collective rights.
>
>         I appreciate the notes of >
>
> God bless us all...             kadargyorgy
>

FUNDAMENSLIS ELEMZESHEZ  -   AGR=C1RPANOR=C1MA

   Tart az =F5szi munkacs=FAcs! A talaj el=F5k=E9sz=EDt=E9se a szok=E1sosn=
=E1l lassabban

halad, igaz ugyan, hogy egyes helyeken a csapad=E9k mennyis=E9ge el=E9rte a

150- 200 mimlm=E9tert. F=F5leg a dun=E1nt=FAli tet=FCleteken adott t=FAl b=
=F5

=E1ld=E1st az =E9g, =E9s a sok=E9ves csapad=E9k=E1tlag t=F6bbsz=F6r=F6se hu=
llott. Igy

ez=E9rt n=E9hol m=E1r a belviz vesz=E9lye fenyegetett. Szeptember v=E9g=E9r=
e az

=F6szi sz=E1nt=E1s munk=E1latai felgyorsultak, =E9s  a rozs, a triticale, a=
z

=F5szi =E1rpa vet=E9se folyamatosan halad. Az =F5szi b=FAza vet=E9se viszon=
t

legt=F6bb helyen csak okt=F3ber elej=E9n indult meg. Az el=F5k=E9sz=EDtett =
mag=E1gy

mintegy 1 eg=E9sz 3 tized milli=F3 hekt=E1ron v=E1rja a vet=E9st. Sajnos a

dr=E1ga m=FCtr=E1gya-=E1rak miatt sok helyen gyenge a t=E1panyagvisszap=F3t=
l=E1s,

szervestr=E1gy=E1b=F3l pedig kev=E9s van.=20

   N=F6tt az =E9rdekl=F5d=E9s az olajipari n=F6v=E9nyek ir=E1nt. A naprafor=
g=F3

betakar=EDt=E1sa sz=E9pen halad. Azok a feldolgoz=F3k viszont, akik nem

k=F6t=F6tt=E9k j=F3el=F5re szerz=F5d=E9st, ne csod=E1lkozzanak, ha k=F6zel =
38 ezer

forintos tonnk=E9nti =E1ron tudj=E1k majd beszerzeni a sz=FCks=E9ges

mennyis=E9get.

   A betakar=EDt=E1st okt=F3ber elej=E9ig a vet=E9ster=FClet mintegy h=E1ro=
mnegyed=E9n

fejezt=E9k csak be. A s=E1ros talajon megcs=FAszott komb=E1jnok miatt n=F6 =
a

vesztess=E9g, =E9s helyenk=E9nt a gombabetegs=E9gek okozta k=E1r is n=F5tt.=
 A

term=E9s=E1tlagok ter=FCletenk=E9nt igen elt=E9r=F5ek, van ahol hekt=E1ronk=
=E9nt f=E9l

tonn=E1t, m=E1shol pedig 3 tonn=E1t is m=E9rtek.=20

   Az =F5szi k=E1posztarepce vet=E9ster=FClete a megn=F6vekedett kereslet

k=F6vetkezt=E9ben emelkedett. Sajnos a csapad=E9kos id=F5j=E1r=E1s miatt ve=
t=E9se

nagyon elh=FAz=F3dott. Az id=F5ben kikelt n=F6v=E9nyek azonban j=F3 =E1llap=
otban

v=E1rhatj=E1k a kora=F5szi h=F3takar=F3t.

  A kukorica betakar=EDt=E1s=E1n=E1l - a napraforg=F3=E9hoz hasonl=F3an -

k=F6zbesz=F3lt az id=F5j=E1r=E1s =E9s a term=E9seredm=E9nyn=E9l itt is nagy=
 sz=F3r=F3d=E1s

tapasztalhat=F3. Az asz=E1ly s=FAjtotta megy=E9kben a term=E9s=E1tlag rendk=
=EDv=FCl

alacsony: 1,5 - 3 t/ha. Viszont j=F3k a term=E9skil=E1t=E1sok a dun=E1nt=FA=
li

megy=E9kben: 4-5 t/ha. Az =F6sszess=E9g=E9ben 4 eg=E9sz 6 tized tonn=E1ra b=
ecs=FClt

mennyis=E9get az id=F5j=E1r=E1s, valamint egyes t=E9rs=E9gekben az er=F5s v=
adk=E1r

m=E9rs=E9kelheti. Jelenleg a szem nedvess=E9gtartalma 30-35 %-os, ami

k=F6r=F3lbel=FCl 5 -10 %-kal magasabb, mint az elm=FAlt =E9v azonos id=F5sz=
ak=E1ban

volt. A sz=E1r=EDt=E1s az energialobbi =E1ltal kier=F5szakolt magas =E1rak =
miatt

m=E1r tonn=E1nk=E9nt 260 - 280 forintba ker=FCl. Az =E1rak azonban csak 13 =
ezer

forint k=F6r=FCl mozognak.

                              ORCZ=C1N CSABA S=C1NDOR
                             =20
                             =20
                             =20
                              =00

SUGOS FAX   MEDVE PIROSKA SZERKESZTo R=C9SZ=C9RE !
                          T=F5zsdenapl=F3=20

   Csend honol a b=FAzapiacon. R=E9snyire ny=EDlt a rakt=E1rak ajtaja =E9s =
a

f=E9lhom=E1lyba t=FBz a b=E1gyadt =F5szi naps=FCt=E9s. Megcsillannak az "el=
dugott"

ganbonahalmok  aranyl=F3 szemei. V=E9ge a spekul=E1ci=F3nak. Annak a

tev=E9kenys=E9gnek, amelyik =E9ppen oly k=E1ros a szabadpiacon, mint amilye=
n

hasznos a t=F5zsd=E9n. A t=FAltermel=E9st sejt=F5, moh=F3 temel=F5kt=F5l gy=
orsan

olcs=F3n felv=E1s=E1rolt gabona =E1r=E1t felhajtotta a l=E1nckereskedelem, =
hogy

k=E9s=F5bb a "hi=E1ny" bek=F6vetkezterkor mint import(!) b=FAza "seg=EDtsen=
" a

lak=F3ss=E1gon. Esetleg meg sem utastatva. Nos, teh=E1t nem t=FCnt el m=E9g=
sem a

b=FAza. Nem is t=FCnhetett, hiszen az arat=E1s =F3ta eltelt id=F5pszak alat=
t a

n=E9gy =E9s f=E9l milli=F3 tonn=E1s term=E9sb=F5l legfeljebb f=E9l milli=F3=
 tonna

hagyhatta el az orsz=E1got. Ujabban csend van - a fizikai piacon.

Ds a parkett bezzeg hangos... =C9s a t=F5zsde ny=EDlt, nyilv=E1nos, =E9pp e=
z=E9rt

becs=FCletes piaca helyre tette az =E1rfolyamokat. Az okt=F3ber elej=E9n

tonn=E1nk=E9nt 21700 forinton nyitott decemberi =E1rfolyam az els=F5 dek=E1=
d,

azaz 10 napos ciklus sor=E1n 20450 forintra esett vissza; ezut=E1n sem

emelkedett, csup=E1n tartott maradt. A janu=E1ri b=FAza a h=F3nap elej=E9n =
m=E9g

22300 forintos nyit=F3=E1rfolyama, foly=F3 h=F3 12-=E9n m=E1r ezer forintta=
l volt

olcs=F3bb!  A m=E1rciusi sz=E1ll=EDt=E1sra =E9rv=E9nyes kor=E1bbi 23700 for=
intos

=E1rfolyamot pedig 23100 forintra "rendezte le" a parkett piaca. De

Korrig=E1lta a T.T=F5zsde a m=E1r embertelen=FCl magas, 25900 forintos m=E1=
jusi

=E1rat is, 25300 forintra. M=E9g az el sem vetett j=FAliusi b=FAza =E1ra is

kiegyenl=EDt=F5dni l=E1tszik. 17000 forintr=F3l 16400 forintra. Ez az =E1r =
m=E9g

mindig b=F5 hasznot hozIhat a termel=F5knek, hiszen a j=F6v=F5 =E9vi =F6nk=
=F6lts=E9g

kis =FCzemben 7000 Ft/t, nagy =FCzemben legfeljebb 8780 forint k=F6r=FCl

alakulhat. =20

  =DCgy t=FCnik, helyes ir=E1nyba l=E9p az agr=E1rrendtart=E1s is, export-

visszafog=E1ssal megel=F5zve a liszt, majd keny=E9rhiszt=E9ri=E1t. =C9s a k=
eny=E9r

m=E9g mindig nem lesz 100 forint. Igaz ugyan, azt m=E1r meg sem tudn=E1nk

fizetni. Nos, v=E9g=FCl is bebizonyosodott, hogy gazdas=E1gunk =F6ngy=F3gyl=
=E1sra

k=E9pes, h=FAz=F3=E1gazata pedig az agr=E1rium! =20

                                         Orcz=E1n Csaba S=E1ndor=20
                                        =20
                              =00

Lectoris salutem!

        t.wukitsch > noted:
  "The many states who often violate group rights would somehow have to
   be convinced to recognize group rights and even to agree to an
   enforcement mechanism for group rights -- an unlikely proposition"

Formulated this way I am "enforced - ;-)" to agree. And now without any
<smiley> I sincerely thank you for your words.
You pointed exactly to the heart of the problem:
        In democratic countries group rights are naturally recognized,
since group rights are deduced from individual rights. Even in the
improbable case when the state is reluctant to recognize the collective
rights of a group, the members of the group can find fora to appeal to,
e.g. federal authorities in the USA, Brussel EU authorities in Europe,
Hague international court, UN organs, public opinion approched through
the news media, newspapers, TV talk-shows, etc.
        In non-democratic  or less-democratic countries violations of
r i g h t s   (no adjective!) are easily declared internal affairs of the
state. When such isolated-looking violation cases show surprising
similarities, and could be related to each other as violations of group
rights, the state would be ready to point at the group as at the
"enemies of the homeland" and "promoters of foreign interests".
        A u t o n o m y  of churches and religious groups, of political
parties, of trade unions, of any recognized groupings of citizens of a
state is a tacit or expressed formulation of the recognition of group
rights by the state (and by its citizens).  I t   e x i s t s.

        The principle of subsidiarity (formulated first by the catholic
church, but certainly  acceptable more universally) says something like
this:
        - any community should administer its own affairs, that is the
affairs born inside and having action only inside that community without
the interference of "higher" authorities (that is those responsible for
the affairs of a wider community circle), and
        - if any interference arrives from "higher" authorities, it may
come only in the spirit of  h e l p i n g  to solve difficult or
ambitious internal projects.
        Example: the state can instigate or obstacle the developement of
the soccer sport by helping to build or by ruining abandoned sport
stadiums, but  why to bother about the colour of flags exposed in a
functioning stadium?

        So the heart of problem has much to do with the values of
democracy...
        My doubts can be reformulated like this:
        Knowing that "many states who often violate group rights" can not
be easily "convinced to recognize group rights",and
        knowing, that the internationally dangerous conflicts in the
former Yugoslavia and the former Soviet Union were partially caused by
the denial of proper autonomies to (in these cases large) groups of
citizens
        why don't the democratic states defend their convictions by
declaring collective rights and recognition of collective rights an
important democratic value, and by trying to find out even enforcement
mechanisms for defending such an important democratic value?

        I hope, that Tihamer von Ghyczy can see better now, what I
mean seriously by groups, that deserve collective rights.

        I appreciate the notes of >

God bless us all...             kadargyorgy