Ray Fischer wrote:

> And denying
> the rights of a real feeling thinking talking woman for the sake of an
> uncaring embryo makes no sense either.

Real feeling thinking talking women are not murderers. Murderers are not 
real feeling thinking talking women.

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

Robert Mobbs wrote:

> >I have no proof that there's a planet named Mars, 
>         Sure you do.  Buy a telescope.  During certain points of orbit,
> you can see it quite plainly.

And you have blind faith in a telescop????? :-))))))))))))

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

 (Robert Mobbs) wrote:

>>I have no proof that there's a planet named Mars, 

>        Sure you do.  Buy a telescope.  During certain points of orbit,
>you can see it quite plainly.

And YOU have blind faith in a TELESCOPE??? I thought you were a 
liberal... Be careful, some liberals may tell you are a fascist bigot.

:-))))))))))

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

T.M.Lutas wrote:
> 
> In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
> wrote:
> 
> > Joe Pannon writes:
> 

> > > (That's Damianiuk, BTW, and they did not let him go just out of their
> > > generosity, but due to lack of (or false) evidence.)
> 
> > Since when does lack of evidence stop people from killing someone if they
> > really want vengeance? It seems the people of Israel no longer want vengean
ce
> > the same way they wanted it at the time of the Eichmann trial. At least the
y
> > don't want it hard enough to cloud their sense of justice.
> 
> That's an interesting way of looking at the Israeli justice system.
> Convictions are motivated by vengeance, not justice. Acquitals are a
> sign that the thirst for vengeance has been slaked. What a bizarre view
> of life and justice.
> 
> DB

Not that bizarre, if you come to think of it.  I understand you spent most
of your life in the US, but through your posts you claim understanding of
Romania's past and present, so you are probably aware that:  
It is (and was) customary in Romania to convict not BECAUSE OF, but IN 
SPITE OF justice (please correct me if you think that I am wrong).  The 
Israeli justice system is as imperfect as any there have been, but I doubt
that you will find such corruption as that that existed in the Romanian
justice system (or for that matter that of today - we can all only watch
and wonder at the conclusions of highly publicized scandals).

Rad

Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
>Ray Fischer wrote:
>
>> And denying
>> the rights of a real feeling thinking talking woman for the sake of an
>> uncaring embryo makes no sense either.
>
>Real feeling thinking talking women are not murderers.

Then why do you refer to them as murderers?

> Murderers are not 
>real feeling thinking talking women.

But you keep ranting that they are.

Are you confused, stupid, or just dishonest?

-- 
Ray Fischer

Dear World Citizens,

You can visit our new web site.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cosmicus

Regards,

Umit Tas
Chairman

ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revise Version)


The Hungarians does not look any more Mongoloids for the same reasons the 
Turks in Istanbul
look European.

It is also true that the Hungarians of today look European.But their 
roots are Mongolic.

From Britannica :(Languages of the world)

"Racially the Uralic people present an unhomogeneous picture.In general 
they may be considered
a bland of Europeans and Mongoloid types,with the more western 
groups(especially the Hungarians,Baltic-Finnic and Erzya Mardvin groups) 
being strongly European and those of the Urals primarily Mongoloid".

From " De Administrado Imperio"by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Byzantine 
Emperor,950AD)

"These eight clans of the TURKS(Hungarians)do not obey their own 
particular princes...,They 
have for their first chief the prince who comes by succession of Arpad's 
family..."
 

From The Hungarian Chronicle(1095AD):

"We (Hungarians) are descendants of the great Huns of Attila".

From "The Mongols" By Jeremiah Curtin

"Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe:The Huns 
with their mighty chief Attila,the Magyars,The Turks or Osmanli,the 
Mongol invaders of Russia..."


From "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" By Edward Gibbon.

"The(Hungarians) are distinguished by the Greeks under the proper and 
peculiar name of Turks,
as descendants of that people who had conquered and reigned form China to 
the Volga (referring to the Mongols)".

From "The Cambridge Medieval History" edited by J.H.Hussey.

"The form ovyypoi,from which are derived the various names current to 
this day among the people of Europe(Old Church Slavonic,UGRI; Russian,
VENGRI;German,UNGARN;English,HUNGARIANS;French,HONGROIS;Italian,UNGHERESI,
and so on)comes from the Turkic ethnic name ONOGUR meaning TEN OGUR"

From "The Thirteenth Trib" by Arthur Koestler.

"We also hear of a fearful encounter which St.Cyril,the Apostle of the 
Slav,had with a Magyar horde in 860,on his way to Khazaria.He was saying 
his prayers when they rushed at him luporum more ululantes-HOWLING IN THE 
MANNER OF WOLVES".

From "Britannica"(Languages of the world).

"Recent study indicates that it is posible to speak of a Uralic racial 
type,an intermediate stage between the European and the Mongoloid,the 
basic features of which are medium-dark to dark hair and eye colour,
relatively small stature and often a concave bridge of the nose".
(Hungary is part of Uralic racial type).

From "Britanica" Hungarian.


"The proto-Hungarians were apparently an ethnic blend of Ugric(Mongoloid) 
and Turkish peoples living in western Siberia...The Hungarians were the 
scourge of Europe,raiding as far afield as Bremen,Orleans and 
Constantinople(the English word OGRE-a men eating man,hideous cruel man,
is a corruption of HUNGAR,attests to their notoriety).

There are many more credible sources like these.

Andras Kornai > wrote:

> Blessing is overstated -- the Hungarian term is "fogcsikorgatva tu3rte1k"
> they tolerated it, with much gnashing of teeth.  Anyway you don't seem to
> know much about his carreer or his works or anything about him -- may I
> suggest you look him up in Who Is Who before we continue with this nonsense?

They "grudgingly tolerated him", you say.  That's the kind of
characterization that must be a frequent claim these days.  In the absence
of evidence, I take such claims as self-serving.

> Better yet, you might try to read some of his books or articles. He writes
> very clearly (if I may say so) and most of his stuff is available in several
> languages. I particularly recommend his "Economics of Shortage" and "The
> Socialist System".

Thanks for the plug of his works.  As you may recall from an earlier flame
war on that subject, I came across some of those books in a library before I
even knew about you, and I had the impression that I was reading a book from
a Kadar loyalist.  As I recall, even Istvan Kertesz (RIP), otherwise no
friend of mine, had the same opinion.  So thanks but no thanks.  Besides,
the last thing I want is somebody explaining me with the jargon of the
"dismal science" what the socialist system was/is like.  I experienced
enough of it first hand.  Why don't you recommend those books to some Ivory
Tower type Westerners instead?

> The term "fleeing" is usually reserved for those who have been persecuted in
> their home country. Emigrants from Mexico to the US, who do their thing
> without the approval of either the Mexican or the US authorities, are never
> said to have "fled".

In the context we're talking about, the term "fleeing" is usually reserved
for "refugees" who leave their home country illegally mainly because they
know that they could not hope to obtain a permission from their own
government. This is hardly the case with illegal Mexican aliens crossing
into US, because their own government has no objection to their leaving.
It's the US, which raises obstacles to their coming.  These Mexicans, for
the most part, are therefore not considered refugees. Refugees are quite
distinct from emigrants.  From what you said, your father was not a refugee,
but an emigrant.  That being the case, he must have obtain permission from
the Hungarian government to leave. But then, having been part of the Kadar
era elite, why should he have chosen to be a refugee in an case?

> Except he wasn't (and isn't) an emigre (legal or illegal). He maintains two
> positions and commutes between the US and Hungary on a regular basis.

But you yourself mentioned the emigration in the first place.

> I think you are still too much focussed on the fifties and early sixties,
>when Simonyi was indeed banned. His rehabilitation must have happened sometime
> in the sixties, for his "Cultural history of physics" was published in a
> lavishly illustrated volume, to great critical acclaim, sometime before 1975.

I only learned about his banishment from the FORUM discussions and from that
I got the impression that it happened sometimes *after* he taught me at BME,
which was in early '60s.  If anybody knows more about the time, I'd like to
hear it.

And with regards to Balczo ...

>Just because he did some rather unsavory things since?

Like what?

> There is a certain amount of truth to this, though less than your phrasing
> would suggest. Those who were denied university-level education in the early
> sixties were treated unfairly at the time and did not, for the most part,
> become members of the elite (there are notable exceptions of course, because
> uniquely talented people did often succeed even on a less than level playing
> field).

That's very cavalier of you to admit that sometimes uniquely talented
people did succeed despite of the hurdles they had to face.  These people
then often had to act as the "right hand" men of the less talented, but
politically promoted bosses.  Some level playing field!

> Well at least I'm refraining from speculating about what is on CSEPPSZ' mind,
> while you are ready to psychoanalyze the "Ka1da1r Jugend" at every turn.

You may be refraining on that now, but you've done plenty of that in the
past.

> Joe, I know you deny the legitimacy of the CC, indeed the legitimacy of the
> whole setup that was created when the communists handed the reins over. Yet
> it was a negotiated settlement, perhaps the best deal that each side could 
> have gotten at the time.

Well, there is an interesting story behind that deal.
Pozsgay, the leading reform communist minister of the time, mentioned in a
radio interview that Prez. Bush invited him to Washington in '89 where he
was told what Bush and Gorbachev agreed upon at Malta.  Namely, that Hungary
and the rest of East Bloc would be allowed to set up democratic governments
without interference from Moscow.  This information was not shared with the
opposition parties by the Communists, but Pozsgay assumed that the SZDSZ
opposition -- through their excellent contacts in the West -- also found out
about this.  Knowing how they were groomed by US ambassador Mark Palmer at
the time, I wouldn't be surprised by that at all!  However, the opposition
centering around Antall's MDF was not privy to that important information
and thus it could not use that at the '89 negotiations.  Had they known that
they had nothing to fear from Soviet intervention, I'm sure they would have
been taugher at the negotiating table.  So this is how that "best deal" was
arrived at vis-a-vis the communists.

> You also deny the legitimacy of Parliament, right? What you seem to forget is
> that people like Hajdu were elected in 1994, so the popular mandate for "an
> accounting of communist era crimes" can't be very strong.

Was Hajdu elected as an individual candidate, or on the Party list?
And ... I am not denying the legitimacy of the Parliament, but I think it
has a major flaw due to most members being elected on a Party list, rather
than as individual candidates.  I could list some other flaws, but let this
suffice for now.

> In fact the greatest strength of the Ka1da1r-regime was that it spread
> wealth and power rather broadly, so that actually a large number of people
> (including the insanely numerous government employees and workers of favored
> industries like steel) benefited.

I'm glad to see such a ringing endorsement of that regime by you!
In true Kadar Jugend fashion!

> Those who did not make their compromises and were in fact marginalized you
> seem to hate with a special passion.

Only in your own perverted mind.

> Take Gyo2rgy Petri, whose poems about
> Brezhnev's death (Felfordult a ferdeajku ve1n trotty) were of course only
> available in samizdat. Now that he got a Kossuth prize the right wing can
> only see that he was just as irreverent about the Virgin Mary as he was
> about Brezhnev...

Where have I written anything about Petri?  I only heard about him now, from
HIX, though I do think that no amount of prior "virtue" can justify his
writing critisized here by others.

> The Czech model was appropriate for Czechoslovakia 1990 as it would have
> been appropriate for Hungary 1966 (which is the time frame you seem to have
> frozen into) but it wasn't appropriate for Hungary 1990.

Oh, I see.  In other words, the Hungarian communists should be allowed to
enjoy the fruits of their "labor", because they smartly loosened up some
30 years after '56.  Heck, the Czechs might have done it, too, some 30 years
after '68.

> You overestimate the power of the media, and underestimate the power of
> reading between the lines, an art Hungarians are very familiar with. It's
> not that Z-T didn't get enough coverage, for it got plenty, it's just that
> the idea wasn't very popular.

Sure, sure.  After the type of coverage Z-T got ...  Besides, it was decided
by the High Court, not by popular vote.  The two are not necessarily the
same.

> Brutus already decided I was the enemy even before I dared to stop that
> gallopping hobby horse of yours, and I doubt he will agree with me on
> anything.

And you don't psychoanalyze others, huh?

> The point was (and remains) that retribution for communist-era
> wrongs is one of the many issues on which the far right is completely out of
> touch with the Hungarian electorate, retribution for WWI and WWII wrongs is
> another.

Why are you using the word "retribution" when I always made the point to
avoid it?  As to "retribution" for WW I, I've no idea what you are talking
about.  As to WW II, that was already done.  So why would that be still an
issue?  What wasn't done is "justice" for the almost 40 years of Communism.

> The plain and simple fact remains that Hungarians don't want
> Transylvania back, and I think this actually displeases Brutus who would much
> rather attribute Romania's less than sterling success in modernization to a
> convenient enemy, irredentist Hungary.

Still trying to sidetrack the issue?  Pathetic.

>> Only because compared to today's economic situation, the '70s and '80s look
>> good in comparison.  And they don't think the pre-70s type of Communism has
>> any chance of return.  It's a case study for Maslow's hierarchy-of-needs
>> piramyd.

> Do you honestly think it will return? I suggest we draw up a set of mutually
> agreed criteria, like selective admission to universities or whatever, and
> each of us deposits some serious money, let's say a thousand bucks, in an
> escrow account, winner to be determined at January 1, 2000 by a panel we
> agree on in advance. I say put your money where your mouth is.

Are you nuts?  Where did I state that I belived that?  I only explained why
they voted for the reform-communists.  There is nothing there that can
suggest that I thought the return of a pre-70s style communism was a
likely occurance.

>Salami tactics? The only portion that has been sliced off of the anticommunist
>front is SZDSZ, and I doubt you cry much over that loss.

I was talking about the salami tactics against the national ("nep-nemzeti")
right, where the main slicer was the SZDSZ and its allies.

> Indeed. The standard term for an antisemitic Jew is "self-hating Jew", a
> moniker awarded with significant frequency.

Where would I find that standard definition?  In a Tom Wolfe book?
I had the impression that the self-hating Jew syndrom was something
psychological, having to do with overbearing Jewish mothers. ;-)

> People on usenet and mailing lists tend to be pretty much self-appointed, I
> dare say this categorization applies even to Joe Pannon, spokesperson of the
> MIE1P "masses".

And you are not psychoanalyzing others again?  Where have you seen any post
from me in support of MIEP?  Considering that I don't know anybody from MIEP
and don't get any of their publications, being their spokesperson is quite a
remarkable achievement from me.

> Also, please keep in mind that the most ringing condemnation
> of Csoo1ri came from fellow writers like Esterha1zy and Me1szo2ly, who happen
> not to be Jewish.

As if I cared what those two guys had to say about Csoori.  Come to think of
it, it's been a long time I cared for Csoori, either.

> Well, since I'm neither leftist nor Jewish we might as well drop this
> fruitless line of inquiry.

Your "leftishness" better be decided by the readers of your posts.
You are better judge of your Jewishness, though your denial made me
wonder when you wrote recently in the HUNGARY list something to the effect
that your Jewishness was a complex issue of which you did not want to talk.
Not that I care, mind you, but that did strike me as somewhat incongruous
with your previous statements.

> "Jewish (or mostly Jewish)" was a direct quote from your preceding post. If
> you insist, I can also dig stuff out from the HUNGARY archives. I say let's
> try to discuss the matter without bringing Jews and antisemitism in.

I insist!  You brought the issue of Jews into the discussion, so don't
weezel out now before you deliver the proof.

> I'm not going to comment on the case of Koreh of which I know nothing about,
> but how about the Hungarian gendarme Jo1zsef Szendi? I understand he was
> kicked out of the US because he tried to cover up his nazi past, and Hungary
> took him back.

As I know, Szendi was a gendarme charged to accompany Jewish deportees to
the embarking points.  I don't know if he killed any of them, or even if he
knew what fate awaited for them.  I doubt most Jews knew.  What I do know
that OSI, after considerable legal harrassment offered Szendi two choices:
financial ruin through legal expenses, or "voluntary" return to Hungary.
He chose the latter.  Ever since the Demianiuk case, OSI lost a lot of
credibility.

> I thought the case generated positive publicity overall, since they let him
> go, but it's all in the eye of the beholder.

That may have been after the negative publicity for the trial itself, well
after OSI's questionable methods became known.

Joe Pannon

In article >,
Lacko/Kohn > wrote:
>
> My instinct says:
>
>Sajnos, nincsen kavet.
>
>If you want to say: I'm sorry, I don't have coffee.
>
>Margarita



That is incorrect. If you want to say: "Sorry, I don't have coffee" than the
following versions are correct and used:
Sajnos nincs ka've'm. (the ' stands for an accent on top of the preceding
vowel)
Sajnos ka've'm nincs. (This stresses that I have other stuff but no coffee)

If you want to say: "I am sorry, I don't have coffee" than replace "Sajnos" 
with "Sajna'lom,"   For "I am very sorry" replace "Sajnos" with "Nagyon 
sajna'lom"

If you want to say: "Sorry (I'm sorry, I'm very sorry), there is no coffe"  
than the end of the sentence is "nincs ka've'" and if want to express that you 
have other stuff but no coffee than "ka've' nincs".

Did I leave out any other combinations? (Probably yes, but that's it for now.)
GK

Peter Szaszvari wrote:

> And furthermore: we cannot kill an embryo because it is not an
> independent being. (HAHAHA)

Stop this nonsense! Embryo is a human being, period.

I'm not an independent being too. I depend on the Nature, on God, on 
electricity, water, phone companies, etc, Does this mean that you can 
kill me. 

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

 wrote:

> The life of a human
> being begins at birth.  Birth is often defined as the beginning.

Let's define posting on Usenet is a sign of human personality. Then all 
persons who don't post on Usenet, are not persons, and they may be killed 
freely.

> Pro-life goes
> ballastic on this point, which pro-choice ignores because, with very
> few exceptions, no one ever aborts a healthy viable fetus.  And most if
> not all of those exceptions are already illegal.

No one? And what about the 20+ millions of killed unborn persons every 
year?

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

Peter Szaszvari wrote:

> We say only that there is no apparent reason to suppose a god.)

Wrong! There is a very much apparent reason to suppose that God exists. 
The reason is the existence of the Universe.

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

Boris Docevski wrote:
 
>     Not true. Human life begins when the fetus takes on all the 
> properties
> human life has; pivotal here is the function of the brain, which 
> doesn't
> begin until well into the 6-7 month of gestation.
>     NEVERTHELESS, the woman ALWAYS has the right to decide what to do 
> with
> her body, including the right to abort her fetus.

Please tell to your mother to abort you. She has this right ALWAYS, 
you're her body and she can decide what to do with her own body.

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

In article >, Ivan Marinov >
 writes:
|> Krasen wrote:
|> 
|> > Once again for Penio: No law in the U.S., nor the Constitution, nor the
|> > Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independance etc., give right to live of
|> > embryos.
|> 
|> This is because the authors of these documents were sure that embryos are 
|> human beings, so they don't need special protection. 

How on Earth do you know? 

|> 
|> > This issue has been settled by the Supreme Court which is the
|> > highest institution competent to make this decision.
|> 
|> Is the Supreme Court a higher authority than the Constitution?

The Supreme Court rulings say what is Constitutional and what not. The Supreme
Court _is_ the Constitution.

|>  
|> -- 
|> 
|> Ivan
|> 
|> ---
|> Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski

Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
>Peter Szaszvari wrote:

>> And furthermore: we cannot kill an embryo because it is not an
>> independent being. (HAHAHA)
>
>Stop this nonsense! Embryo is a human being, period.

Stop your bullshit.  An embryo is not and never has been considered to
be a human being.

-- 
Ray Fischer

Hi all,
	I found this great Hungarian wine in Publix supermarket, the brand
name is Duna, it's a cabernet sauvignon... mmm!  It's delicious! Anyone
tried it?
	Speaking of Hungarian wine... I recall when i saw the film "The
Music Box" with Jessica Lange -- she was Hungarian-American and she was in
a resturant drinking some sort of special Hungarian wine -- I'm completely
unfamiliar with this -- is there any type of 'special' hungarian-style
wine? If so, where can you find it in the U.S.?
	"Cheers"! Nicole --
 _______________________________________________________________________
|	                  Nicole Evonne Lemley                          |
|                  School of Library & Information Science              |
|                        Florida State University                       |
|                    e-mail:                      |
|                           "Never be silent!"                          |
|      	                        	-The Alarm, "Marching On"       |
|_______________________________________________________________________|

Mr.,I attacked you on two fronts 

1. The identity of the Hungarians.
2. The identity of the Jews living in Hungary.

Lets solve the first problem.

1. The identity of the Hungarians.(Which are their ROOTS ?).

There is no way in the world to deny the fact that the ROOTS of the 
Hungarians are Mongolic + Tatar(Turk).That is the base of your ancestry.
To this solid base some other layers were added in time(These last layers 
were European).
I came up with a longer list of sources which can clear up your mind.

ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revise Version)


The Hungarians does not look any more Mongoloids for the same reasons the 
Turks in Istanbul
look European.

It is also true that the Hungarians of today look European.But their 
roots are Mongolic.

From Britannica :(Languages of the world)

"Racially the Uralic people present an unhomogeneous picture.In general 
they may be considered
a bland of Europeans and Mongoloid types,with the more western 
groups(especially the Hungarians,Baltic-Finnic and Erzya Mardvin groups) 
being strongly European and those of the Urals primarily Mongoloid".

From " De Administrado Imperio"by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Byzantine 
Emperor,950AD)

"These eight clans of the TURKS(Hungarians)do not obey their own 
particular princes...,They 
have for their first chief the prince who comes by succession of Arpad's 
family..."
 

From The Hungarian Chronicle(1095AD):

"We (Hungarians) are descendants of the great Huns of Attila".

From "The Mongols" By Jeremiah Curtin

"Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe:The Huns 
with their mighty chief Attila,the Magyars,The Turks or Osmanli,the 
Mongol invaders of Russia..."


From "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" By Edward Gibbon.

"The(Hungarians) are distinguished by the Greeks under the proper and 
peculiar name of Turks,
as descendants of that people who had conquered and reigned form China to 
the Volga (referring to the Mongols)".

From "The Cambridge Medieval History" edited by J.H.Hussey.

"The form ovyypoi,from which are derived the various names current to 
this day among the people of Europe(Old Church Slavonic,UGRI; Russian,
VENGRI;German,UNGARN;English,HUNGARIANS;French,HONGROIS;Italian,UNGHERESI,
and so on)comes from the Turkic ethnic name ONOGUR meaning TEN OGUR"

From "The Thirteenth Trib" by Arthur Koestler.

"We also hear of a fearful encounter which St.Cyril,the Apostle of the 
Slav,had with a Magyar horde in 860,on his way to Khazaria.He was saying 
his prayers when they rushed at him luporum more ululantes-HOWLING IN THE 
MANNER OF WOLVES".

From "Britannica"(Languages of the world).

"Recent study indicates that it is posible to speak of a Uralic racial 
type,an intermediate stage between the European and the Mongoloid,the 
basic features of which are medium-dark to dark hair and eye colour,
relatively small stature and often a concave bridge of the nose".
(Hungary is part of Uralic racial type).

From "Britanica" Hungarian.


"The proto-Hungarians were apparently an ethnic blend of Ugric(Mongoloid) 
and Turkish peoples living in western Siberia...The Hungarians were the 
scourge of Europe,raiding as far afield as Bremen,Orleans and 
Constantinople(the English word OGRE-a men eating man,hideous cruel man,
is a corruption of HUNGAR,attests to their notoriety).

There are many more credible sources like these.

In article >, Rad > wrote:

> T.M.Lutas wrote:
> >  (Andras Kornai) wrote:
> > > Joe Pannon writes:

> > > > (That's Damianiuk, BTW, and they did not let him go just out of their
> > > > generosity, but due to lack of (or false) evidence.)

> > > Since when does lack of evidence stop people from killing someone if they
> > > really want vengeance? It seems the people of Israel no longer want
> > > vengeance the same way they wanted it at the time of the Eichmann trial.
> > > At least they don't want it hard enough to cloud their sense of justice.

> > That's an interesting way of looking at the Israeli justice system.
> > Convictions are motivated by vengeance, not justice. Acquitals are a
> > sign that the thirst for vengeance has been slaked. What a bizarre view
> > of life and justice.

> Not that bizarre, if you come to think of it.  I understand you spent most
> of your life in the US, but through your posts you claim understanding of
> Romania's past and present, so you are probably aware that:  
> It is (and was) customary in Romania to convict not BECAUSE OF, but IN 
> SPITE OF justice (please correct me if you think that I am wrong).  The 
> Israeli justice system is as imperfect as any there have been, but I doubt
> that you will find such corruption as that that existed in the Romanian
> justice system (or for that matter that of today - we can all only watch
> and wonder at the conclusions of highly publicized scandals).

I was commenting negatively on the idea that the israelis where not out 
for justice. I made no comments on the Romanian justice system and you 
really can't get my opinion of from my above comments.

Communist justice was doubletalk and doublethink through and through no 
matter what the country you were in. This was the case in Romania. I think 
we pretty much are on the same side here. What I would say is that the 
system that communists call justice *is* a bizarre view of life and justice. 
To map that bizarreness onto the israeli system is to see the world through 
dark, bloody lenses, not a comfortable view for me.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

> So does the lessening of that tilting over time morally excuse those who 
> benefitted from that tilting? 
Of course not. 

> Please look at the subject line of this thread. This isn't how bad were 
> the politics of communism but how bad were the morals of communism. 
You are presuming some absolut morals independent of time and circumstances. 
You also have a tendency to lump together all countries at all periods, an
approach that doesn't serve your cause well. Perhaps in underwear one size 
fits all is a reasonable approach, but in rendering moral judgement it isn't.

> A dirty stinking deal may have been the best that the forces of good could 
> have won against the forces of evil on that particular battlefield on 
> that particular day but that doesn't change the moral situation one bit 
> or make them any more or less morally legitimate. To appeal to the fact 
> that it was the best that could be negotiated as a moral position is a
> troubling window on your world view.
I think the fact that you already decided it was the forces of good vs. the
forces of evil makes your simplicistic world view evident. There were people
on both sides of the issue, and neither side could claim moral superiority
just on the basis that they embraced a cause they thought was morally
superior. Morality is not an issue of generic pontification, it is an issue of
doing the best possible thing in an imperfect world. Yes of course a
negotiated settlement is far superior morally to one achieved by force. Yes of
course contracts, freely agreed upon by the contracting parties, create their
own legitimacy. 

> This is an interesting idea that there is a statute of limitations on moral
> outrages. I'm sure when you face God on judgment day you could try
> expounding to him this idea. Who knows, it might be good for a laugh or two. 
Again this timeless morality. By today's standards, Abraham Lincoln was a
racist. Yet we remember him as the emancipator of the slave, as a great moral
guiding light for his time, not as a racist. It is no accident that nearly all
systems of justice encompass some notion of limitations. Of course one
shouldn't be outraged the same way about what happened thirty years ago as
about what happened three years or three months ago. The opposite view leads
to the current position of many Serbs, that all acts against Muslims are
justified, since it is proper retribution for what happened at Kosovo Pole.

> Please tell me more on how you should structure such a statute of
> limitations and why you don't think that this will make communists guilty of
> such crimes fight all the harder to delay a turnover of power by hook or
> crook, just to try to get that judgement delayed until it is finally denied. 
You seem to have a boundless capacity for outrage and pontification, and a
rather limited ability to see those who do not agree with you as fully moral
human beings.  All this fits well your tendency to declare some people like
the "Ka1da1r Jugend" collectively guilty, and makes it highly doubtful you are
the kind of person I'd like to see rendering moral or legal judgement on
anybody. I would certainly not be happy to hand over power to a person like
that. Delay seems exactly the right thing, especially as you show no respect
for negotiated settlements. This is, by the way, the key factor that makes 
both Joe and you extremists: if you always want to undo earlier settlements 
why should anyone bother negotiating a new one with you? 

Be it is at may, the issue of how one should structure the statute of
limitations for communist-era crimes is a worthy one, and I suggest that the
same principles should govern this one as any other. First, limitations should
be inversely proportional to the magnitude of the crime: people don't get
prosecuted for misdemeanors after say 1-5 years, for nonviolent felonies after
10-15 years, and for murder after 30 or so years. Some crimes carry shorter
limitations in one country and longer in others -- to me any system currently
in use in any EC country should be about OK. Second, the things we are talking
about are usually fairly easy to capture in terms of well known categories of
crime.  For example, denying someone admission to university would be
something that could be accomplished in an honest system only by falsifying
official documents, a well known crime with a well known penalty and
straightforward limitations. 

> If you ever come over to see the light, you can be assured that I will give
> you equal consideration. 
See the _light_? Dude, all I see is a pocket Savonarola. But I'm glad you 
would agree with me provided that I first agree to whatever you say, this 
is really a comforting thought. 

<Transylvania stuff cut>

> BTW, why do you insist on terming such accounting as retribution and 
> vengeance? Why don't you even grant the possibility that they are searches 
> for justice?
Since it seems to be the kind of justice that can only be done by punishing
some people, isn't this what we call retribution? Specifically, you were
proposing fining communist cronies. Better yet, that the people to be fined
also offer self-criticism and agree that they gave up the money voluntarily,
in the name of justice and morality. And of course you decide who was and who
wasn't a communist crony. Because I belong to the "Ka1da1r Jugend" you already
asked me to pay some fine, voluntarily of course, and I should also engage,
strictly voluntarily of course, in some public self-flagellation. If I manage
to flagellate my father in the process so much the better, but the only thing
that is really required is that I openly condemn him. Gee, what is it in this 
whole noble crusade for justice that makes me think of vengeance?

Andra1s Kornai

Sajnos, nincs(en) kave. - is the correct form (without t!)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,
Maria Egorov > wrote:
>
>There are many more "credible" sources like these.
>
The only useful sentence in the post.
By the way MOR has an e on the end. There is usually a space between the First 
Initial and the Last Name.

Jo napot kedves olvasok:

	Valamikor volt mar kezeim kozott a Soros Foundation
	cime, de termeszetesen mikor szukseg van ra, akkor
	lehetetlenne valik megtalalni.

	Ha valaki tud segiteni, halasan koszonom.

	J.

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/web>;
Version: 0.1
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: web
Posting-Frequency: every ten days
Archive-name: hungarian/web
Last-modified: 1996/07/04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 The following is the chapter recently removed from the main body of
the hungarian-faq. This is not yet completely re-edited for stand-alone
format, nor completing a collection of all important links has been
attempted. For more comprehensive WWW directories see, for example:
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>;, <http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; or
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>;.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like WWW
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- ------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://www.hix.com>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://www.hix.com/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://www.hix.com/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;. 
The Hungary-Online archive is available from 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>; 
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;. [The same server also hosts a
"Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ" <http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/>;.]

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers 
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county 
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

 See also section 2.3 above, which covers
<http://www.siliconvalley.com/>; and refers to other links as well.

- ------------------------------

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In article >,  says...
>
>
>Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.
>
>I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
>and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me 
>with the following:
>
>Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs
>
>Which of the two sentences is correct??
>
The first version is correct, Achille.

Agnes

>Thank you for your time.
>
>Achille Albertelli
>
>E-mail: 
>

> I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
> and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me
> with the following:
> 
> Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs
> 
> Which of the two sentences is correct??


The correct sentence is "sajnos kávé nincs" -- nominative. 
Kávét is accusative (direct object). 

Gabe

> I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
> and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me
> with the following:
> 
> Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs
> 
> Which of the two sentences is correct??


The correct sentence is "sajnos kávé nincs" -- nominative. 
Kávét is accusative (direct object). 

Gabe