Zoltan Szekely wrote:
> > >How about the economic growth, which was artificially stopped
> > >in 94? Why did the liberals force the government to cut
> > >and cut without implementing a healthy growth in the
> > >economy?

Conspiracy theory No. 12948: "The Liberals Killing Economic Growth in 1994".
Just a couple of sentences betray total ignorance of basic economics.
One cannot 'implement' a growth in the economy.  There must be the
conditions for economic growth (including a balance in the economy) and
then there is growth, otherwise there isn't.  Under the Antall/Boross
governments, the balance has deteriorated steadily and that put an end
to growth.  Also, note that economic indicators mostly show the effects of
not current, but past, policy.  Just as the Antall government enjoyed and
usurped the fruits of the Nemeth government's reforms, now the Horn
government is made responsible for it's predecessor's sins and its own
prevarication for a year after taking office.

> >         Interesting switch from the subject on hand. By the way, that
> > healthy growth was not so terribly healthy and at the price of further
 debts.
>
> No further depts in the growths of the neighboring
> countries.

Exactly because they carried out the necessary restructuring that
Hungary has so far put off.

> The antisocial demamogiery can survive
> in Hungary now, because the growth is artificially
> blocked. They argue, that 'we have to cut in order
> to grow', but in fact they don't support growth at
> all.

This suggest that your solution would be not to cut and stimulate growth
at the same time.  Since there is a lack of resources for that, this can
only be financed from borrowing that was already becoming too onerous and
too expensive.

Oh, I forgot the alchemist solution so often used by governments of the
extreme left and right: print money.

> >         Oh, I see. All the economic troubles associated with the change of
> > economic structures began only two years ago when the MDF-led government
> > lost the elections.
> That's not true. They began with the failure of the
> 68 reforms. After 68 the communists wanted to show
> up success rather than the existing failures and
> began extensively borrowing.

Further proof of gaping holes in factual knowledge.  Borrowing started
after the oil-price shock of 1973, coinciding with the orthodox wing in
the Hungarian Socialist Workers' Party undoing much of the 68 reforms.

The 68 reforms WERE a success by all objective standards, as far as they
went.  For they went in the direction of a market economy, only not too
far.  In fact, they were so successful in empowering a new stratum of
non-Party people (the entrepreneurs, the small-plot peasants, etc.) by
enriching them that this lead to the orthodox revolt against them in
defence of the Party's power monopoly.

> Now, you and your
> liberals, dear Eva, beat the hell out of us, Hungarians,

I think you are rather confused about your own identity.  You have been
posting from outside of Hungary for some time now, if not always, so you
cannot count yourself among the Hungarian 'victims' of Eva and 'her'
liberals.

> That's the point of Ms Gidai: we have to renegotiate
> about this huge depts inherited from an illegitime
> political course. (That's why you hate her so bad?)

Another irrational Hungarian reaction to the debt crisis: since the
debt was accumulated by the illegitimate communists (let us ignore
now the fact that much of it was not), the lenders should just accept
the partial wiping of the slate.  This again is a case in point of
the total lack of understanding of how international finance works.

The fact that someone called a professor of economics also lends her
name to such zany scheming puts her econmics credentials in the
appropriate light.  And if she was really so well positioned in the
ancient regime, she may have had a hand in borrowing that money in
the first place, so why should we accept her word for anything anyway ?

George Antony

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 01:36 AM 7/19/96 GMT, Agnes Heringer wrote:
>
>>Eva, I have a nokkedli szaggato that my mother sent to me 30 years ago.
>>Incidentally, here, in Toronto, there is a Hungarian hardware store
that
>>sells it.
>
>I love nokkedli but I don't have the patience to make it.  If I had a
>nokkedli szaggato...  Hey!  Where is this place?  Can you give us the
>store's address and phone number.  I live 100KM west of TO and would
love to
>buy a nokkedli szaggato next time I'm in the city.
>
>Joe Szalai

It is on Spadina, in the middle of Chinatown.  I will look it up in the
yellow pages.

Agnes

In article >, 
says...
>
>On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:54:45 -0700, Tibor Benke > wrote:
>
>>Eva Balogh writes:
>>
>>>At 08:41 AM 7/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>Tibor Benke was looking for a spice dictionary. I think he ment the
>>>>following posting in TIPP #1621 from: 
>>>>on Jan 3, 1995.
>>>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Slightly deviating from the topic....
>
>I wonder whether is common knowledge that paprika may have saved
>Hungarians and other Central European nations from scurvy. If I am not
>mistaken Albert von Szent Gyorgyi extracted vitamin C (ascorbic acid)
>from paprika, in which is found in concentrations much higher that
>equivalent weights of citrus.
>
>Besides 'szilva lekva'r,' there was another lekva'r, made from
>rosehips, that was staple food in Transylvania. It also has large
>quantities of ascorbic acid. Does anyone remember the name of rosehips
>lekva'r?
>
>Ro'zsa Bandi

It is called hecsedli.  We also made tea and wine from it.

Agnes
>=============================================================
>      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
 < OR >  
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
>=============================================================
>
>
>

In article >, "http://candles"@community.net
says...
>
>Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>>
>> At 09:53 AM 7/20/96 -0700, Norma Rudinsky wrote:
>> >The mothers of Joe and Gabor must have got around, because (though my
own
>> >English and Welsh family dinners were different) in Banska Stiavnica
my
>> >Slovak in-laws' Sunday dinners were the same.  And the cucumber salad
was made
>> >with peeled sliced cucumbers in vinegar and water, salted, peppered,
and
>> >red with paprika?
>>
>>         Oh, yes, the cucumber salad was made with peeled sliced (very
thinly
>> sliced! cucumber in vinegar and water (little sugar added), salt,
pepper and
>> paprika dusted on the top of it. Occasionally, sliced green peppers
were
>> added for decoration.
>>
>>         Eva B.
>
>
>Our family enjoyed the raditional Sunday dinners too. But one Sunday we
did not. Mother managed to get a half
>kilo veal for "ra'ntott hu's". Since we did not have a fridge (1952 +/-)
she took it down to the coal cellar to
>keep it cool while we went to church Sunday morning. However, she forgot
that one of the window panes was
>missing. When we came home from church, she found an empty vajling
(bowl) with the szita (sieve) that covered
>it, knocked over. To make a sad story short, that Sunday one (or more)
of the local felines had the traditional
>Sunday Dinner, not us.
>
>Jozsi Hill



Jozsi!  Where on earth did your mom got the veal from??

Nobody had libasult (roasted goose) on Sunday?  Also, many spring and
fall sundays we went hiking and thus our dinner was korozott stored in
green peppers, and hard boiled eggs...

Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 01:43 PM 7/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Anyone have a recipe for pacsni?.my dad would like to know....
>>
>>                                                 Jules Hernadi
>
>        Pacsni? Doesn't that have something to do with lungs? I checked
a
>couple of Hungarian cookbooks but I couldn't find the receipe.
>
>        Eva B.

According to Vizvary Mariska's cookbook, it is the "vesepecsenye szele".

Agnes

In article >,  says...
>
>In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:
>
>>And I always believed this kind of behaviour was reserved for American
>>troops only.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>>
>>
>
>Would you have approved of it if it had been?
>Sam Stowe
>
>P.S. -- You mispelled "behavior."
>
>
>He didn't.  We, in Canada, use the British spelling - i.e. behaviour,
favour, etc.

Agnes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>P.S.S. -- That was a joke, Joe.
>
>"When you find the one you might become,
>Remember part of me is you..."
> -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

> Felado :  [australia]

> [pacsni] is made from a pretty soft dough that flattens out during
> preparation, so that one side is flat while that other looks like a relief
> map.
Exactly! I've been searching in vain for the right simile to describe the
rugged terrain that is the top of the pacsni...

> > nem ma1kos, mazsola1s.
>
> I must side with Orszagh on that.  The ones that were avaiable in Budapest
> as late as the 1960s were mainly plain, with the odd poppyseed version.
> However, I have never seen one with sultanas or raisins.  mind you, they
> disappeared from the shops after the 1960s (rationalization of the product
> line, I suppose), and there may be new-fangled ones in circulation now
> that are different.

Pacsni was a victim of the arbitrary price controls so characteristic of
communism: since it was roughly the size of a kifli the price was decreed to
be the same (40 fille1r in the sixties). The vice minister of socialist bakery
industry (no, this part is just kidding, though titles like this did exist in
the Soviet Union) or whoever set the price neglected to take into account that
pacsni was made in smaller lots, and could never achive the economies of scale
benefiting kifli and zsemle. The net result was that the big "bread factories"
didn't make any (since it would have been a big loss-maker) and pacsni
disappeared from the stores for most of the sixties, to reappear only in the
early seventies at a price twice that of kifli.  The poppyseed version must
have been more prevalent before the appearence of this dangerous and much
regretted pacsni gap, so I'm basically too young to remember it, but I'm
delighted to see Orsza1gh vindicated (as usual) on historical grounds. The
liberalized pacsni of the "new economic mechanism" had raisins, and sweet, but
not overly sweet, dough. A major point in its favor was the fact that unlike
poppyseed pacsni, it existed not only in some 5 year plan, but could actually
be bought in stores. This is not to diminish the glory of poppyseed pacsni
(which must also be very yummy) but still, better a raisin pacsni in the hand
than a poppyseed pacsni in the bush.

The story of how consumer demands forced the privatization of increasingly
more important sectors of the economy still has to be written, but pacsni was
definitely an early harbinger of this process. I still remember the long lines
at the Fe1ny utca bakery: the fact that there were bread lines (even though
these people waited just for better bread, the "bread factory" variety being
available in every store) was distinctly humiliating for the advocates of
centralized planning and production, and private bakeries began to flourish.
People were fed up with the monopoly taxi company, which was first broken up
in two competing entities, and a few years later private cabs were also
permitted. The same story played out in the gadget and garmet industries.  The
trailblaizing enterpreneurs of the seventies were the "fro2ccso2nto3
kisiparos" manifacturing molded plastic toys and the "triko1s" with the
associated "butikos" making and selling t-shirts.

Next came the masons (I can't wait to hear what NPA thinks of that:-) indeed
free masons no longer working for "Construction Company #34" (34-es
E1pito3i1pari Va1llalat) and such, but working as independent contractors.
Also the carpenters (another highly suspect profession), the plumbers,
electricians, and the rest of the yellow pages.  Since you could make more
money as an independent, by the eighties even the big dinosaurs of socialist
industry had to take notice as they were losing their best workers: this led
to the company-internal privatizations (VGMK) of the eighties. A lot of these
steps have not yet been taken e.g. in the Czech Republic, which still
tolerates "unemployment inside the factory fence" (kapun belu2li
munkane1lku2lise1g) or in Romania, which to me seems to be in the
triko1s/butikos phase.

Andra1s Kornai

For Zoli Fekete's (legitimate) questions:
>> 2.  ANL was alerted from the outside to NPA's allegedly antisemitic
>>     views.  Were it not for such allegations, anl would not have pursued
>>     the case.
> How do you know what would have been the case had it been differently?
If they pursued every employee for personal use, we would not have half
of our fed. employees.  But once antisemitic allegations are on record,
and DOE is involved, everybody is trying to cover their own ass, and I
suppose they did not want to have the incident reoccur, where further
heads would have to roll (everybody's who knew about it).  The "personal
use" charge came in very handy, where they don't have to fiddle with first
ammendment rights. They didn't even have to worry about filing a
termination!

>> 3.  The "antisemitism" and "propagating pornographic materials" charges
>>     were dropped, and changed to "private use of government computers".
> So then was it for the allegations dropped, or for the stated reason?
Like I said, he was coerced to quit, under the official charge of "private
use..."  There was a third original charge as well, which I forgot to
mention: "breaking into government computers", which too was dismissed.

>> 4.  In previous newsletters, as well as verbally, employees within anl
>>     were encouraged to use Internet, in particular netscape.
> Posting and emailing is not particularly Netscape activity - which is
>primarily browsing.
Of course.  But can't you post and send e-mail from netscape?  They all
fall into the same category.  The point is that everybody is using the
Internet, partly because of the encouragements, but only one is fired.
So the _official_ charges made no sense at all.  They should look at
your productivity, not how many e-mail messages you are sending.

>> 5.  NPA is not, by definition cannot be, antisemitic.
> What is this supposed to mean?
The details you'll find out in due time.  Mark my words though.

In return, let me ask you to state your position on the case.

Barna Bihari

At 7:05 p.m. 7/22/96 Barna Bihary wrote of some considerations, that I
think it behooves us all to weigh seriously.  If we don't allow freedom to
people we may violently disagree with, here in cyberspace, how can we
expect to hold on to liberty in the real world?

I have exchanged letters with Mr. Nemenyi in both FORUM and HUNGARY as well
as privately, and though we are at opposite extreemes of the political
spectrum, I have found him to be a good discussion partner.  He has never
deliberately misinterpreted what I had to say, nor used slippery rhetorical
devices to score points.  I have always considered him one of my "friends
in cyberspace".

As for labels such as Nazi and Anti-semite, if used in reference to people
who actually behave like the criminals who attempted to eradicate certain
others not for what they did, but for what they were, or in reference to
people who hate and preach hatred against other groups of people, then we
are dealing with a serious matter, and if the accusation is true, sanctions
need to be applied.

But the words seem to be tossed about much too easily in the heat of
argument.  Even ole' Uncle Karl was accused of being an anti-semite when he
published his essay, "On the Jewish Question" in the _Deutche-Franzoschise
Jahrbucher_ (sp?).  It worries me, because many Hungarians, (even me) have
a rather disfunctional response to being the target of name calling.  The
cycle goes something like this:

You're a Nazi

No, I'm not

Yes! You are a NAZI

No I'm not, I never hurt anybody and sometimes I even tried to help.

But you like millitary music and uniforms, and Schiller and Wagner,
obviously, you're a NAZI.

No, I tell you I am not.  I'm just nationalistic and like good music.  And
you are starting to make me upset.

Yeah, you Nazis get upset easily, don't you, don't you?!

I    t o l d    y o u  I  a m   n o  N a z i, I  w a r n   y o u. . . .
You are a Nazi

You say I'm a Nazi,  I'll show you Nazi...!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*

One of our favourate national myths is called "Lehel Kurtje" (The Horn of
Lehel) which with admiration discribes how Lehel, the defeated chieftain,
did a little damage before he was executed.

In other words, when we think we can't gather, we scatter.  Most likely, if
we don't learn to get past this, we will suffer the consequences.

Sometimes, reading the electronic news of Central Europe, I think of how in
the novel _1984_, Winston Smith, was seeing little wars here and there
around the globe, which,in fact, had been prearranged to help the rulers
maintain their grip on power.  The Yugoslav and Rowandan/Burundian wars
appear to me to eerily resemble that, they make no sense otherwise.  In my
more paranoid moments I think, "Are the people who really run this world
setting Hungary up for it next?"  We better all cool down and think about
what is going on and what kind of world we really want to live in.  The key
is, "What if they gave a war, and nobody came?"

But Mr. Nemenyi should get a hold of himself too, and remember where
cybespace is.  This is an electronic network open to anyone built
originally by parts of the American Millitary Industrial Complex including
the Intelligence Community for its own purposes and not so I or Mr. Nemenyi
should be enabled to spout subversive ideas freely.  What one writes can be
read by anyone and they can use that information any way they want.  No one
in this group need have turned him in, you can be sure the authorities are
monitoring this and most other lists.  Maybe he has lead a peaceful life in
America, and mistakenly believed the propaganda that it really is a free
country.  It seems to be as long as you have the right range of opinions
and aren't too "extreeme" and strident.  Yet there are fewer progressive
executives in America than there were technically astute but politically
unreliable people in relatively high positions in the bad old days under
actually existing socialism.

Let me share with you, my experience.  I am not complaining.  I wan't no
sympathy, I just want to warn you.

As someone pointed out, (Andy?)  I signed off this list and stayed away for
a while.  This was partly because I started to get overwhelmed by e-mail.
One factor which excacerbates my condition is too much excitement.  Before
I signed off though, I left a rather bitter toned letter.

Here is what happened.  Somehow the subject of the (non?)existance of
political prisoners in the U.S. came up on this list.  I opined that in the
US there truly is much fewer such cases and the ones there are, masquarade
as real criminal cases, by way of that clever method, known as "framing".
I brought up the case of Joe Hill the I.W.W.(International Workers of the
World a.k.a. O.B.U. -- One Big Union -- in which they wanted to organize
the entire "working class" and shortcut the need for revolution by going on
strike all at once)  activist executed for murder in the first decade of
the Twentieth Century. In the course of the discussion which followed I
admitted here in public that I was sympathetic to the ideas of
Anarcho-syndicalism.  Some weeks later, as I was traveling by bus to
Bellingham, Washington to visit friends, I was stopped during the border
check and informed that I am on a list of people not to be admitted to the
United States.  I was given a form informing me of this and sent back to
Vancouver on the next Bus.  The only reason stated (in the blank marked
'reason' on the form) was an arcane alphanumeric code.  I have since
inquired far and wide what this might be, but better men then I have been
excluded from the home of the brave and the land of the free, Farley Mowat,
for instance, so I have no hope of ever getting a clear explanation or
showing that as a disabled mature man I am little real threat to anyone,
let alone the most powerful state on earth.  I continued to be puzzled
until, while watching a Video by the title of _Borders_, I learned that
there is an obscure federal law on the books, left over from the McCarthy
Era, according to which alien persons who advocate [ideas subversive of the
principles of the US] must not be allowed to enter the territories of the
U.S., I connected the two above discribed events.

So be warned, the internet is a public medium and Big Brother is watching.

Tibor Benke

Friends,

       This is for the benefit of those who don't receive MOZAIK,
                                                             Amos

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: OMRI Daily Digest - 23 July 1996 ( 41 sor )
> Idopont: Tue Jul 23 20:01:00 EDT 1996 MOZAIK #798
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

OMRI DAILY DIGEST
No. 141, 23 July 1996

SLOVAK COALITION PARTY TO INITIATE CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGES. Slovak
National Party (SNS) deputy chairwoman Anna Malikova on 22 July
announced that her party will initiate several measures dealing with the
Hungarian minority, Slovak media reported. Domestic measures include
speeding up the passage of the Penal Code amendment on the protection of
the republic, the submission and passage of a local election law "based
on the proportional principal according to nationality," and the
reevaluation of constitutional articles 15 and 34. Article 15 prohibits
the death penalty, while Article 34 deals with ethnic minority rights.
Malikova said the latter should be changed to ensure that minorities
have not only "the right" but also the "obligation" to master the state
language. The SNS also wants to pass a law setting conditions for
erecting monuments in Slovakia. Concerning foreign policy, the SNS will
soon inform the Council of Europe's parliamentary assembly about the
"problematic position of Slovakia's Hungarian minority." -- Sharon
Fisher

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Barna L. Bihari wrote:
> >> 5.  NPA is not, by definition cannot be, antisemitic.
> > What is this supposed to mean?
> The details you'll find out in due time.  Mark my words though.
 I have marked them ;-(. Be forewarned, though, that the standard
whitewashing 'it's not antisemitic if it could somehow be interpreted
otherwise' won't work... (Not that this particular aspect of fine-tuning
the categorization of what NPA had been spewing forth has much bearing on
the events discussed - what matters with respect to those happenings,
assuming of course that his quitting was indeed forced and related, is an
employer bringing disrepute to his company's name.)

> In return, let me ask you to state your position on the case.
 I'll form one when a "case" will have been demonstrated, preferably with
the all-important details. So far we've only seen unfounded assertions -
some of which are false on their face (such as the alleged 'free speech'
rights to use company property in violation of their policy), the rest
being dubious at best. I commented on those more than their worth already.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



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Mr. Stowewrite wrote:

>Your points aren't any better than his. He lives in  Canada, for
>Christ's, sake! You'd have known that right off the bat if   you
>had bothered to read his posts.

You are quite right Mr. Stowewrite. I must apologize. I almost let
myself lured into a dead end street.

NPA.

Mr. Stowewrite wrote to Mr. Bihari:

>If a beginning reporter handed this in to me, I'd throw it back
>in his/her face and tell them to either explicitly source it or
>forget ever seeing it in print. As far as any of the rest of us
>can tell, you've pulled these "facts" out of your rear end.
>Either provide the source(s) of your information or shut up.

I must come to the aid of Mr. Bihari.  I provided  him  with  the
tape recordings of the case between me and various members of the
scandals. Mr. Bihari doesn't have to  shut up,  because  all  the
proofs regarding to this matter, are valid.

But the gatherings of all  the necessary evidence is  not finished
yet, just as the case is still  in  a  pending state.  I ask your
patient towards Mr, Barna.

Thank You: NPA.

Mr. Tibor Benke wrote:

>I have exchanged letters with Mr. Nemenyi in both FORUM and HUNGARY
>as well as privately, and though  we are at  opposite  extreemes of
>the  political spectrum.

I can testify, Mr. Benke is right. We are world  apart  as far as our
political views are concerned. But does it have to mean, that we have
to call each other names? I don't think so.
Mr. Benke in my eyes is a true liberal. I don't have anything against
it. As long as he is not a phoney liberal, I can admire his convictions.
And it seems, he is not. He sticks to his points.
And  I can  echo his world:     I consider  him one of my "friends in
cyberspace".
A darn dangerous partner in argument though! :-)

>No one in this group need have turned him in, you can be  sure the
>authorities are monitoring this and most other lists.
>So be warned, the internet is a public medium and  Big Brother  is
>watching.

That is true, but You know, there are always RATs! And sometimes Big
Brother listens to them! :-)

NPA.

At 03:46 AM 7/24/96 GMT, Agner Heringer wrote:

>According to Vizvary Mariska's cookbook, it is the "vesepecsenye szele".

        More confusion about pacsni, but it seems that both meanings are
correct. The first meaning of "pacsni," is "pasztra'na," which is described
as "hosszukas, lapos, vajas peksutemeny [longish, flat, buttered roll]. But,
the second meaning is "to"kehu's la'gy sze'le," or a part of "tenderloin."
Obviously my memories of "pacsni" had something to do with the second
meaning, hence, my confusion with another part of animal meat. By the way,
the dictionary says that the word "pacsni," as a kind of meat, comes from
the German.

        Eva B.

At 09:06 PM 7/23/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>Eva answered to me like that:
<snip>
>>         I repeat: because she [Erzsebet Gidai] is ignorant and stupid.
>Talk about tautology... as proof??

        I am afraid Zoli Szekely knows just as much about philosophy as he
knows about economics. Ignorant and stupid are two different words for two
different concepts. Using the two words together doesn't constitute
tautology. It is not a tautology in English and not a tautology in
Hungarian. Ignorant means "lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing
specified," in this case, economics, while stupid means "lacking
intelligence or reason." Erzsebet Gidai seems to me both. Anyone who writes
an essay and publishes it in a public forum must be lacking intelligence,
while the contents of her essays shows that she is "lacking knowledge" of
the subject.

        Proof? Just read the article alongside with, let's say, George
Antony's piece.

        Eva B.

At 09:40 PM 7/23/96 -0400, Bob Hosh wrote, quoting me on the by now infamous
topics of "pacsni":

>>         Oops! That was quite a mistake: pacsni versus pacal. Pacal is the
>> awful thing made out of lungs.

>Pacal is not lung (tudo); it is tripe, which is part of the stomach of
>ruminants used for food.

        It just shows how often we had pacsni, pacal, pa'jsli at our house.
Like zero times. Paolo since informed me that "tu:do" is not "pacal," but
ordinarily called "pa'jsli." Elegantly called "szalontu:do." Although I have
no idea what is so "szalon" about that thing. One always learns something
new. Thanks.

        Eva B.

At 06:36 PM 7/23/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>What about development standards in these subdivisions? Are these homes
>required to have municipal water and sanitary sewer or are they allowed to
>get by with a well and septic tank? Do the streets have curb and guttering
>and sidewalks? Is there any kind of regulation regarding side-, rear- or
>front-yard setbacks? Any landscaping requirements? Appearance
>requirements? Zoning alone is just half of the equation, at least here in
>the U.S. Many municipalities also impose these kinds of urban standards on
>new development. I'd love to know whether the Hungarians do or not.

        I don't know anything about newer regulations concerning zoning but
last March I visited a place in the Mecsek mountains called Orfu". Orfu"
became a vacation spot for many after an artificial lake was created there.
In the last twenty-thirty years it became heavily built in: vacation homes,
the kind we call in this country after the Russian name, dachas. On the
lakeside these little houses were absolutely on the top of each other. I
don't have figures but it couldn't have been more than a few square meters.
And of course the houses were tiny and unattractive because the people
didn't really have either the space or the money to build anything fancy.
However, there was municipal water and sewer system.

        Eva B.

Zoltan Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" wrote:

>I have marked them ;-(. Be forewarned, though, that the standard
>whitewashing 'it's not antisemitic if it could somehow be interpreted
>otherwise' won't work... (Not that this particular aspect of fine-tuning
>the categorization of what NPA had been spewing forth has much bearing on
>the events discussed - what matters with respect to those happenings,
>assuming of course that his quitting was indeed forced and related, is an
>employer bringing disrepute to his company's name.)

Does it mean, that My alleged antisemitism, which of course a hoax, caused
my dismissal? And Mr. Fekete spelled out, that my denouncement was the work
of those who felt intimidated by my articles? Hmmm, it is an interesting spin.

>>In return, let me ask you to state your position on the case.

>I'll form one when a "case" will have been demonstrated, preferably with
>the all-important details. So far we've only seen unfounded assertions -
>some of which are false on their face (such as the alleged 'free speech'
>rights to use company property in violation of their policy), the rest
>being dubious at best. I commented on those more than their worth already.

Wow, so far I was booed, way before "case was demonstrated" even though I
was asking many times of a little patience!  The "all-important details"
are known though. Denouncement for political articles, forced resignation
for drummed up excuses, etc.

NPA.

Let's learn some 'clever' :-( technique from Eva Balogh:

> At 09:06 PM 7/23/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>
> >Eva answered to me like that:
> <snip>
> >>         I repeat: because she [Erzsebet Gidai] is ignorant and stupid.
> >Talk about tautology... as proof??
>
>         I am afraid Zoli Szekely knows just as much about philosophy as he
> knows about economics. Ignorant and stupid are two different words for two
> different concepts. Using the two words together doesn't constitute
> tautology.

Oh, the naughty little snipper!! Let's see, what did
she snip out (emphasis by me):

> >So she is
> >    (1) stupid,
> >    (2) ignorant,
> >    (3) enemy
> >just because she has different views from yours.
        ^^^^^^^
> >>         I repeat: because she [Erzsebet Gidai] is ignorant and stupid.
                       ^^^^^^^
> >Talk about tautology... as proof??

I.e. Ms Balogh says here, that Ms Gidai is stupid
and ignorant, because she is ignorant and stupid.

And then she educates me about the word 'tautology'.
Is not funny, like hell?!
                                           Sz. Zoli

Antony Gyuri wrote:
>
> Zoltan Szekely wrote:
> > > >How about the economic growth, which was artificially stopped
> > > >in 94? Why did the liberals force the government to cut
> > > >and cut without implementing a healthy growth in the
> > > >economy?
>
> Conspiracy theory No. 12948: "The Liberals Killing Economic Growth in 1994".
I read the other 12947 conspiracy theories in the USA.
No country in the world, which has as many conspiracy
theories, as the US has! There are at least 200 conspiracy
theories about the Kennedy killing alone! It is a
flourishing business. The believers of these theories
have their own newspaper, Internet discussion group,
TV programme etc. I just heard recently, that there are
conspiracy theories even about your morning cereal!!
Yes, there really are.

Nevertheless, the liberal tactic in Hungary is not a
conspiracy. It is a very reasonable political stand.
The only problem is, that although during the MDF-govt
the necessary conditions for starting a growth were
developed (thanks to the professionalism of the eco-
nomy politics of Bela Kadar), Hungary missed this
chance in 94 because of mere ideological reasons of the
new governing coalition.

The experts of the FIDESz, Polgari Part, Kereszteny-
demokrata Part, etc. all support the opinion, that the
country was ready for growth in 94.

> > No further depts in the growths of the neighboring
> > countries.
> Exactly because they carried out the necessary restructuring that
> Hungary has so far put off.
Are you sure? Even Slovakia? Are you not kidding?

> > The antisocial demamogiery can survive
> > in Hungary now, because the growth is artificially
> > blocked. They argue, that 'we have to cut in order
> > to grow', but in fact they don't support growth at
> > all.
> This suggest that your solution would be not to cut and stimulate growth
> at the same time.
No. The growth would provide the base for the necessary
cuts. (Also, people are more willing to accept cuts if
they earn more.) That is as simple as it is.

Economic troubles...
> > They began with the failure of the
> > 68 reforms. After 68 the communists wanted to show
> > up success rather than the existing failures and
> > began extensively borrowing.
> Further proof of gaping holes in factual knowledge.  Borrowing started
> after the oil-price shock of 1973, coinciding with the orthodox wing in
> the Hungarian Socialist Workers' Party undoing much of the 68 reforms.

Who has the gaps? 68 would not mean the YEAR 68. 68
means the idea of "new machanism" in Hungary, which wan-
ted reforms in the economy only, but not in the society.
(One of the leaders of 68 was Aczel Gyorgy.)

The failure of 68 did not happen in 68, but a couple of
years later. 73 really gave a deadly shock to the ideas
of the 68 reforms, but it was not the only reason for
the complete failure. The reason was the lack of the
accompanying reforms in the society at large. It is true,
that Kadar was convinced to allow the money-borrowing,
and it is my opinion, that he allowed, because he was too
coward to admit the failure.

> > That's the point of Ms Gidai: we have to renegotiate
> > about this huge depts inherited from an illegitime
> > political course. (That's why you hate her so bad?)
> Another irrational Hungarian reaction to the debt crisis: since the
> debt was accumulated by the illegitimate communists (let us ignore
> now the fact that much of it was not), the lenders should just accept
> the partial wiping of the slate.
No. The lenders should not accept it because of that
only. They are not really interested in the politics
inside the country. That's fine. But, the negotiations
should be started because of that. And the idea of
negotiations is completely justified because of that.

Now it is the time, that you should come out, you economic/
financial wizzards, and explain the good reason to the
money lenders (and not the wrong reasons of doing nothing
about the debt to the country). That's what is generally
understood about loyality to your home country, and not
the opposite.

One more question left here. What did you mean by this?
> The FORUM has been taken over by a noisy group of
> political extremists (Nazis and their fellow travellers) whose debating style
> conforms with their unsavoury political views.  They have been busy fouling
> their own nest to the extent that the original group of debaters have all but
> left.  They are not representative of Hungarians, neither in their political
> views, nor in their debating style: they are merely a bunch of rednecks who
> are abusing freedom of speech in general and Jo'zsi Hollo'si's facilities
> in particular.       George Antony
Does it mean, that everybody is a Nazi/fellow traveler/
redneck/etc. on the FORUM?

I'm really curious.                            Sz. Zoli

Dear groups;

I haven't had time yet to get caught up on reading all the postings (more
than 500) in the nearly 1 month I've been away.  However, I've scanned
enough to see we have an ongoing problem in both the Hungary group and the
Hungarian Lobby.  We have an awful lot of fierce rancor and space and time
devoted to calling people "anti-semitic" and arguing about whether the
labelling is justified or not.

How about a definition upon which everyone can agree?  Right now, it seems
to a casual reader that virtually any criticism of Israel, or of a person's
behavior or expressions who happens to be Jewish is grounds for some small
group or other to scream "'anti-semitic'--get rid of him/her from this
group!" When is it ok to post valid criticism, and at what point does it
become "anti-semitic?"

Perhaps some people may know personally some of the people they accuse of
this alarming prejudice, but most of us don't know that individual from
anyone else on these groups.  All we see are a few postings--hardly much to
judge a person's full character.  Not only that, but from what I've seen
(and this is just a personal opinion), everyone has an "off" day when
they've posted something in which they failed to consider all the possible
interpretations, cause offense and of course then regret it.  Is it possible
that as readers some are a bit oversensitive and could be over-reacting also?

I'd hate to think this ongoing "burn" that seems to scorch more and more
people--some of whom I've never seen here before, and do not all seem to
come from "siliconvalleynet.com"--is because some people may actually think
that _any_ criticism of anyone who is Jewish or of Israel is wrong.  I
really can't believe that is the case, but so far I've yet to see any
criticism that has been accepted as valid, and there seems to be more people
coming and going from the "Hungary group" than sticking around and
continuing to post.  So, perhaps this is an issue we need to come to some
more rational agreement upon, and have a universally known and accepted
definition that anyone can cite and then ask the moderator(s) (Hugh, etc.)
to intervene.

May I suggest that the first intervention be also to politely ask if the
feeling of anti-semitism was what the author of the posting really intended
to convey, and if not, that Hugh or someone else offer some constructive
suggestions as to how a particular criticism of an individual act (can be by
a group) or individual's behavior, or a perceived series of acts,  might be
better worded?  How about if we try to give people the benefit of doubt and
offer some constructive suggestions as to how to conduct debate--rather than
always (or nearly so) _seeming_ to be ready to take him/her out to a wall
and shoot him/her?

To start another thread that is related to this and is equally important,
here's another question maybe worth a discussion.  Why does this (and many
others) mail list (along with the usenet groups that aren't any better) so
often seem like a group of sharks (as in creatures evolving before the age
of dinosaurs with limited brains, no control over primeval instincts and
great means of mayhem) in a blood-maddened feeding frenzy?  Ah yes, I know
the psychologically educated in this group will say, "but we are only
ripping one another to shreds psychologically, in words, not deeds anymore,
isn't that better--some improvement of the species?" "People who can't
handle this are just weaker."

My first contribution of an individual answer to this thread must be,
NO!--because we have not mastered the mindless killing instinct--we've only
learned about and developed another tool to kill or maim.  The basic
instinct remains the same--unconfronted, and uncontrolled or unchanged.
We've simply become more imaginative at doing harm.  We still remain no more
evolved or civilized than the sharks.  Ok, folks, some one else's turn to
play "chum" now...

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose,CA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Gabor;

At 05:19 PM 6/17/96 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:28 AM 6/17/96 -0600, Cecilia wrote:
> "We need a much more
>imaginative and proactive program or set of programs that promote change
>from within the country--such as a radio free program that does more than
>broadcast news and commercials and interviews with individuals harranguing
>about macro-change."
>
>The problem with this is that in North Korea, like in *1984* by George
>Orwell, the radios are sold without frequency adjustment. All they have is
>an on-off button and all they can listen to is the government propaganda.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>
Thank you for the reply.  My apologies for responding so late, but I've been
away from the group for about a month.

That may well be true for North Korea, and I will also add, that their
peculiar geography combined with currently still tight controls makes
smuggling of any other equipment difficult, if not downright impossible.
However, North Korea isn't the only nation that could do with some serious
change if more nations are to become "first world", and better yet, the
human species is to survive, much less evolve.  Even the U.S. (actually as
one of the "biggies" in need of serious change) could benefit from some
radio-free programming.  (Have you ever looked closely at the political
process--where and how the decisions for candidates, legislation, etc. are
_really made_ in most states of the U.S.?  To quote from any number of "B"
movie characters, "it's really ugly in there..." ;-) ). I know for a fact
smuggling is much easier in most countries--why the Chinese and Mexicans do
it to the U.S. daily! :-)(

More seriously, if the CIA and KGB are to be believed (I have my doubts, but
for lack of much better--and at least this is a consensus of two agencies
who are not normally known to be in much agreement...), in all the nations
of the world, at least 3/4 of the people do already have cheap transistor
radios, and up to 2/3 have cheap audio-cassette players/recorders. Most of
those radios already are multi-band receivers--including shortwave.  The
BBC, for instance is very popular all over China, even in the most remote
villages.  You may remember the Ayatollah overthrew the Shah with mass
popular support from all parts of Iran, and then proceeded to completely
change the culture and attitudes of the country, all in less than 10 years
with the use of transistor radios and cassette recorder/players.  This was
not just told to me by one of the inner circle who engineered this
(literally), but has been reported in the international press, more than
once, also.  (My understanding, when I checked, is we are not relying on the
same sources for this information.)

Thus, I think with a few exceptions, a significant degree of cultural change
for a large part of the world can be achieved within a decade or so, if
someone or some group with enough means cares to even try.  As the remaining
"unaffected" countries become a smaller and smaller group, they will
probably experience more pressure from mere ostracism to change.  As no
nation is any longer fully self-sufficient economically, it seems likely
that all will somehow be affected, eventually.  It would just be a matter of
time.

Hitler used mass radio and television, and look at what he did--size and
scope, not quality, please.  The Ayatollah did things similarly.  Mass media
is but a tool that can be used for good or evil.  It is unfortunate that
thus far we've lacked the imagination and will to use it much for good, but
that may change...

Again thank you for you reply and interesting, and useful bit of information.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA






N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

According to *Sport Plusz Foci" (July 13) the Hungarian team looked
very good. They had green slacks, royal blue jackets, straw hats, and
sandals. According to the newspaper they marched "in a disciplined fashion,"
and in columns, unlike many others. Bence Szabo, a fencer, was carrying the
flag. They made a good impression says Gusztav Megyesi, the author of the
article.

        Eva Ba.

Dear Group;

At 12:46 PM 7/24/96 -0700, you wrote:
>        According to *Sport Plusz Foci" (July 13) the Hungarian team looked
>very good. They had green slacks, royal blue jackets, straw hats, and
>sandals. According to the newspaper they marched "in a disciplined fashion,"
>and in columns, unlike many others. Bence Szabo, a fencer, was carrying the
>flag. They made a good impression says Gusztav Megyesi, the author of the
>article.
>
>        Eva Ba.
>
>
They're looking even better in the medal count--and that has been noticed by
the media.  Hungary is mentioned as winning this medal or that literally
every day on NBC.  Other nations whom have won medals are not mentioned
nearly as often.  Hungarians--and Hungarian Americans can be proud of their
team.  Also, don't forget that Bela Karoly--unquestionably the greatest
gymnastics coach in the world and who was well covered is also essentially a
Hungarian...

Shall we now cheer for Kauch Kiraly, in beach volleyball?

By the way, the Hungarian Amateur Radio Team of Istvan Bogyo and Gyozo
Macsugo (from Debrecen) have been upon review by the World Radiosport Team
Championship-96 stations subcommittee determined to have done incredibly
well with a handicapped station site.  They are still among the top ten
radio teams in the world, and I hope someone in Debrecen will share that
information with them.

We figured out that if the site had been even one grade better--based upon
their rates, multipliers, division between the two modes of operation, etc.,
they would have definitely placed in the top 10.

Also, it appears, that our Finnish "cousins" may, after completion of the
recovery of their crashed computer logs, be receiving the 3rd place award.

Considering how important amateur radio is to the security, emergency
communications, and technological-economic development of any nation, I hope
the Hungary group will also share my heartfelt congratulations to the
Hungarian radio team for its participation in WRTC-96 (the Olympics of
radio), and its fine performance.  By the way, this is the 2nd WRTC to which
Hungary has been invited to send a team.  Considering that in both events
only 30 countries were considered good enough to send teams, this is a major
accomplishment of itself.

I hope we may look forward to seeing the Hungarian team again in the
WRTC-2000--very possibly hosted by Croatia and Slovenia, together.  I can
just about guarantee if the Croatians and Slovenes do host it, the Hungarian
team will have a much better station site...(it will be interesting to see
the U.S. reaction, however...) ;-)

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Group;

At 12:45 AM 6/26/96 GMT, you wrote:

>In article >,
 says...
>>
>>This week's 'Corporate Citizen of the Week Award' goes to Gabor D. Farkas
>>for the following example of the politics of simplicity.
>>
>>>To this I can add: God save the education from teachers' unions that
>>>continuously preach about the level of education but only care about their
>>>members' level of compensation.
>>
>>Go for it Gabor!  Perhaps with divine intervention all those nasty
>>teachers' unions will finally be brought to heel.  And, God willing,
>>maybe you can tell us the next sector of society you'd like to impoverish.
>
>I, too, was somewhat taken aback by Gabor's ejaculation! Clearly, it was
>made in complete ignorance of what is involved in serious and dedicated
>teaching.
>

I live in San Jose, California: population 800,000, rated better than any
other large city in California except Sacramento.  Here is what a liberal
media investigating team recently found out about San Jose.  Literally 50%
of the public school children above the age of 14 use drugs regularly, and
more than 40% of all public high school graduates cannot read and understand
more than simple sentences, nor construct complete sentences in any
responses.  The fastest growing segment of the AIDS population in this city
is among 18-14 years old, usually contracted before they graduated from high
school.  We have an out-of-control, seriously undereducated youth.  The
total number of graduates whom are not educated enough to hold a job more
sophisticated than "janitor" or "hamburger-maker" is over 60%.  Not one
single company in this valley, no matter how liberal the directors is
currently in favor of ending or slowing immigration of educated
persons--because they know their survival depends upon it--and not the local
indigenous graduates.  Although the problems were not solely the
responsibility of any one group, it was noted that the largest of the two
teachers' unions has consistently opposed all testing standards and criteria
for either students or teachers that anyone has thus tried to establish.
Nor have they come up with their own.

Perhaps other states have better situations, and I am sure we all know
wonderful individual teachers, or even individual schools.  However, we must
ask ourselves: are these the rule or the exception?  In some areas they may
be the exception, and we usually feel and comment most strongly on our local
perceptions.  Thus, I can understand, though not totally agree with, Gabor's
comments.

By the way, Joe, most of the high-school and junior high school teachers I
know, live better than I do--as a company co-owner. I am also a company
co-owner who has spent a considerable amount of extra time, money and effort
recently helping her husband teach graduate engineers how to do such things
as keep good, readable notes, and do a decent statistical sampling...  After
16 years of public schooling, shouldn't we ought to be able to expect better
than that?--Worse, we are not alone...

Respectfully,


Cecilia L.Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Eva and group;

At 08:04 AM 6/26/96 -0700, you wrote:
>At 05:17 PM 6/24/96 -0400, Peter Hidas wrote in "The Hungarian Refugees of
>1956: Who Were They?"
>
>>Consequently Hungary lost three
>>percent of its 15 to 39 years old population, 4.1% of the 15 to 19 group.
>>Persons of military age left in high number. Men in their twenties who
>>defected constituted 10.3% of their cohorts, the 19 years old group, 9.3%.
>>The youth of Budapest departed in large number. Fifteen out of every
>>hundred left from the 15-24 group. The highest proportion of refugees came
>>from the 5th, 6th and 7th districts of the capital where most of the
>>white-collar workers, intellectuals and Jews lived.
>
>        These are staggering numbers and I wonder whether anyone has studied
>the demographic and intellectual consequences of this massive emigration
>after the 1956 revolution.
>
>>        Two-thirds of the refugees were formerly employed, while 1/3 of
>>them were supported. White-collar workers constituted 25% of the refugee
>>population, 3.3% of their cohorts. One half of the blue-collar workers were
>>skilled industrial labourers, 4.2% of their cohorts.
>
>        Although Peter doesn't give the percentage of blue-collar workers
>(skilled) in the total numbers, the percentages compared to the cohorts
>indicate to me that relatively speaking at least skilled workers emigrated
>in even greater numbers than white-collar workers.
>
>>College and university
>>students numbered 3,200, 11.2% of the Hungarian total.
>
>        Again, the numbers are staggering and at least from my university
>the most outstanding students left in the greatest numbers.
>

I can't speak for many areas where Hungarian refugees ended up, but I can
tell you that Silicon Valley thanks the Hungarian Government prior to 1988
and its Russian mentors very much indeed!  Where would be, for instance
without Intel, or that wonderful group of Star Wars scientists at Lawrence
Livermore?  Also, the equally lucrative Hollywood film and television
industry likewise thanks you.  Actually I suppose the entire U.S. should
thank the stupidity of Hungarian and Russian officials profusely.  Silicon
Valley high technology and its effects upon development of the many
lucrative industries in computers, software, health technology, advances in
automobiles, etc., and the Los Angeles area film/television/entertainment
media industries are the two most lucrative and powerful sectors of the U.S.
economy--and the U.S. is unquestionably the most powerful nation
economically in the world...  Does this qualify for enough demographic effects?


>>The refugees returned in the highest
>>proportion from Belgium.
>
>        Just curious. Why? Was the situation that bad in Belgium?
>
It's just a guess based upon what some Chinese friends of mine told me very
recently, but maybe it's because no matter how long you live there, and whom
you may marry, you get the feeling you are always perceived--and
mistrusted--as a "non-Belgian...  I did not get the impression that my
Chinese friends were terribly comfortable with this.  I also heard the same
thing from others who are of European or U.S. ancestry, but the Chinese
comments were more recent.  But consider this also, if the Belgians even
among themselves still squabble about "Walloons" and "Flemings" and
constantly resort to using English as a "neutral language of negotiations"
between the two indigenous groups, as a result of their mutual prejudices
against one another, what does it say for the chances of _real_ outsiders?


One other possibility is maybe they finally figured out that Belgian
automobile drivers were more dangerous than Russian tank drivers. (By the
way, I have to thank a Russian businessman--discussion last week--for that
one.) ;-)

Thank you very much Eva for allowing me to exercise a bit of wry humor in
all this.  Lately I've had to keep reminding myself that with as many
Hungarians in Silicon Valley as there are, some things can't stay as bad as
they seem forever...  Now if we could just get some rational, practical
business-oriented Hungarians in charge of the (expletive deleted) MBA
programs, and executive recruiting agencies, around here...

Cecilia
Semi-sane Silicon Valley, USA









N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

At 09:00 AM 7/24/96 -0500, Mr. Nemenyi wrote:

>I must come to the aid of Mr. Bihari.  I provided  him  with  the
>tape recordings of the case between me and various members of the
>scandals.

        I am just curious. Did you ask the "various members of the scandals"
about using a tape recorder or you just happened to have one in your pocket
and at the appropriate time you simply began to roll.

        Eva B.

At 11:44 AM 7/24/96 -0600, Celia wrote:

>We have an awful lot of fierce rancor and space and time
>devoted to calling people "anti-semitic" and arguing about whether the
>labelling is justified or not.
>
>How about a definition upon which everyone can agree?  Right now, it seems
>to a casual reader that virtually any criticism of Israel, or of a person's
>behavior or expressions who happens to be Jewish is grounds for some small
>group or other to scream "'anti-semitic'--get rid of him/her from this
>group!" When is it ok to post valid criticism, and at what point does it
>become "anti-semitic?"

        I don't think that this is a fair description of the kind of
antisemitism we have been talking about in the last few weeks. We are
talking about Mr. Nemenyi, who, among other things, believes that some of
the medieval blood libels (meaning Jews killing Christians to use their
blood for ritual purposes) described in various historical documents were
not the figments of imagination but real. He also believes in Jewish
international conspiracies, thus events, like the Bolshevik Revolution is
connected, according to him, to a Jewish-American banker's loan to Japan in
1904. I would call this pathological antisemitism.

        This is not criticism of Israel, which can be criticized plenty,  or
some critical remarks about some no-good person who happens to be
Jewish--this is a bit more serious than that. So, let's not trivialize the
matter.

        Eva Balogh

How much cost of this Flat for sale?

Thank you in advance.

Sudhir.

How much cost of this condo for sale?

Thank you in advance.

Sudhir  :-)

Eva Balogh wrote:
> >
> >In other words, if the country goes into bankruptcy,
> >then the finance minister, maybe the prime minister,
> >etc.  should also go into bankruptcy. And these
> >politicians should pay cash for their mistakes.
> >
> >Maybe Mr Kornai was right.
>
>         Of course, I wasn't talking about such "personal responsibility,"
> but the kind ordinary citizens of a country take for their own lives and
> their well-being.

Double their salaries and they won't screem. Make the
economy healthy so that you can double their salaries.
Until then ... well, make them a chance to survive.

>         I would be very curious to see the exact wording of what Mr. Kornai
> had to say about personal responsibility and jailing the finance minister
> for bad decisions and their consequences.
No, it was not about jailing, it was about paying.
Pay cash (or surrender property) if you, as a leader of
the country, cause demages and unnecessery sufferings to
the nation. It was a remarkable suggestion of Mr Kornai.

                                               Sz. Zoli

In article >, Andy Kozma >
writes:

>Thank you Sam;butr dream along with Lyle.And
> your American freedom will
>live for ever as long as you have Jesse Helms and Burton as senators.
>As for hockey,well we can not match your almighty bucks,but that is not
>enough to win a Stanly Cup.As for stupidity,OK.Mr.you are a brain
>storm,and now you can fence with Joe.
>The case what you mentioned was a trial for several young women,and the
>justice system tried to prevent you tabloids to feed on it.
>Otherwise I will take a vacation till I can concentrate my mind to please
>you and your friend,if you have one.
>Sleep well and dont forget to listen to lyle.
>A.K.
>
>

Beautiful, Andy, beautiful! You almost have the whiff of Szucs about you
at this point. Thanks, by the way, for admitting that the right to free
speech in Canada is a rather relative one revocable at will by an agent of
the government. Bet you sleep good at night.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

Sam had this Post Sriptum for me:
>
> P.S. -- A personal note: Your attitude toward the U.S. and its history
> reminds me of my brother's exchange student girlfriend during his senior
> year of high school. When I was home from college one weekend, she took
> out a book she had brought with her from Norway and showed it to me,
> explaining that it documented the "on-going American Holocaust" against
> blacks and lecturing me about how evil my country is. When I asked her to
> explain her country's much longer, more vicious treatment of Lapps, she
> shrugged it off by saying that Lapps didn't count because they weren't
> completely human. Perhaps Europeans aren't so much challenged by their
> history as by their stubborn refusal to hold themselves accountable for
> some of its darker parts.

My attitude toward the U.S. and its history is respect.
It is a big country, where 96% of the population is a
believer of God. 6 of each 7 voters are Chritians. Maybe
that's what keeps this country together, this is the
essential glue, that makes up the nation. (Don't tell me
during the NBC's coverage of the Olimpic Games that no
nation, and no mainstream nationalism exist in the U.S.)

On the other side, the U.S. lacks some historical-cultu-
ral experiences because of the short run of his history.
But it is not bad, even advantageous, so that the country
is easily (and democratically) governed.

I can not see your point about the "on-going American
Holocaust". What is this?

My point was, that the historical heritage of Black
America could explain the emergence of black nationalism.
In my conversation with D. Farkas I tried to convince
him, that this would not mean a green light to American
Nazism. Farrakhan is not a Nazi, but a black nationalist.
The Million Man's March was not organized by Nazis, but
nationalists. As a consequence, the U.S. of America is
not a pseudo-democracy tolerating Nazi demonstrations,
but a free society accepting the ideas of human right
movements.

I repeat, I do not like Islam nationalism, and Farrakhan
is not for me. But he is not a Nazi.

The reason of the desparate misunderstanding about this
topic is the unfortunately loose usage of the terminus
'Nazi' by some radical ideologists. Also this is behind
the antidemocratic actions against Nemenyi.

                                               Sz. Zoli

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
"Intolerance even toward thought, opinion and word, and
finally, intolerance in the opposite direction, that is
toward the self-styled conservatives, to the political right
-- these anti-democratic notions respond to the actual
development of the democratic society."
                                           (Herbert Marcuse)
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

At 05:45 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Oh, "good social programs"! But there are hardly any "good social
>programs." Most of them just an awful waste of money which help no one
>except those people who manage to get a nice, fat job out of them.

You put quotation marks around "good social programs" as if they were
oxymora.  Well, they are not.  Like so many 'self-made persons' you falsely
believe that you've never had the advantages of social progaramme, good or
bad.  Your recollections and self-reflection of the circumstances of your
past are not as clear as your knowledge of history.

So, let's do a reality check.  Did you pay for the full cost of your high
school and university education in Hungary, or did other Hungarians, those
whose kids never had a chance to go to university, do without, so that some
could benefit from an education?  And what about your university tuition in
Canada?  Did you ever believe that you were paying the full cost of your
education?  I hope not, 'cause you weren't.  If you had to, you probably
could not have afforded it.  Even today, with tuition fees raising, students
still pay less than 25 percent of the cost of their education.  The rest of
the cost is paid for by the Canadian taxpayer.  This social programme helped
you.  Was it a good social programme?  Or would you prefer to be cleaning
houses in Ottawa, even today?  It's funny how we tend to forget that we all
benefit from good social programmes.

>        I'm glad that at least "on a superficial level" my arguments are not
>bad! The problem is that I'm right.

Well, that's what you think.  Your certitude reminds me of the man who went
to a fortune teller.  He sat down in front of the fortune tellers crystal
ball.  "I see you're the father of two children", she says.  "That's what
you think," he says.  "I'm the father of three children".  She smiles, and
says, "That's what you think."

>The West-European welfare state is close to bankruptcy.

When the West-European welfare state goes bankrupt, so will West-European
capitalism.  Trust me on this one.

<snip yet another dire example of how social programmes and benefits are
strangling the economy - this time in Germany>

>        Oh, my God. Surely, you don't take all this terribly seriously. The
>communist parties of Eastern Europe were not the parties of the working
>class! The old system of plan fulfillment died years and years ago and even
>when it was alive it was a fraud.

Why is it that you can tell me that, "the communist parties of Eastern
Europe were not the parties of the working class", but when I tried to tell
you that, in the thread about the Russian revolution, you say that I'm confused
?

>        You are quite right. As Hungarians always say: we have only one
>elite. Yes, they didn't have another elite somewhere in reserve! The right
>wing is extremely upset over that fact.

No need to be pedantic here.  No society has an elite in reserve.

>        I don't think that you are terribly familiar with the system of
>existing socialism. The political and economic leaders were not as wealthy
>as you think. I recommend that you read Janos Kornai's book, *The Socialist
>System: The Political Economy of Communism (Oxford University Press, 1992;
>Princeton University Press, 1992). In one of the early chapters Janos Kornai
>tells the reader about the socialist elite's economic and political
>position. It wasn't all that glamorous! The rest is all the product of your
>imagination without really knowing the facts.

Well, at least my imagination is still alive and active.  I'm also sure that
the Sultan of Brunei would tell me that he's not as well off as most people
think.

>        We are not talking about some bright future and some sacrifice. We
>are talking about a semi-bankrupt economy, where you have no other choice.

"No other choice"??  You're feeling awfully certain again, aren't you?  I
envy you!

Joe Szalai

At 07:20 PM 7/24/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>My attitude toward the U.S. and its history is respect.
>It is a big country, where 96% of the population is a
>believer of God.

        Where did you get this figure? It sounds inordinately high to me.

>6 of each 7 voters are Chritians.

        In what sense? Again, this sounds very high to me. Plus it much
depends what we mean by Christian. I am Christian in the sense that I am not
Jewish, Islamic, or a Buddhist. But, if under Christian you mean a person
who is an active church goer and a believer, I don't think you can
categorize me as a Christian. As far as I know less than 50 percent of the
population goes to church.

>(Don't tell me
>during the NBC's coverage of the Olimpic Games that no
>nation, and no mainstream nationalism exist in the U.S.)

        Good thing that you mention that unspeakable, nauseating nationalist
coverage which is going on at the moment in this country. It is a disgrace.
Two days ago, I spent a whole evening watching a third--sorry, a
fourth--rate American team doing compulsory exercises in gymnastics. The
same can be said about many other sports, where the Americans do next to
nothing while we are missing the best athletes perform. In swimming, for
example, the camera is often on an American who is fifth or sixth while we
don't even know who the winners are. I find American nationalism of this
sort just as appalling as I find Hungarian nationalism appalling.

        By the way, Hungary has its first goal: Norbert Rozsa in 200-meter
breast stroke!

        Eva B.

Hugh Agnew wrote:

> Since the summer is here with a vengeance (at least in the area where I
> am) and the sour cherries are in at the U-pick orchards, I remembered
> fondly enjoying the Hungarian cold sour-cherry soup in Budapest the times
> I was there.
>
> Does anyone have a sure-fire, authentic, handed-down-from-grandmother,
> unmeasured, a pinch of this a pinch of that, recipie for this soup?

No other takers for this ?

I must admit to finding the original recipes too heavy (laden with flour,
often egg, etc.).  So, I usually make a light ("lite") version of it that
is quite similar to preparing mulled wine.  Here follows what I would do
with fresh cherries, standard disclaimers apply ;-)

My base is tinned morello cherries, in your case the fresh ones need to
be stewed to get the coloured and flavoured juice that makes the soup.
Try say 1/2 kg of cherries, cover with water (the quantity depending on
whether you want other fruits in or not), add whole cloves, a stick
of cinnamon and some lemon peel.  I also put in some black peppercorns for
a little bite, but you may not want to.  Stew unitl the water has acquired
a nice colour and the cherries have softened but do not fall to bits.  Now
sweeten the juice to taste, and take the spices out.

I always put in other fruits for a variety of texture, colour and flavour.
The preference is rambutans or lychees (fresh or tinned) and fresh
pineapple.  If not available, apples or pears can also be used (tinned OK,
otherwise peel, dice and stew them, separately from the cherries).

For that creamy taste I use light cream.  If one is really cautious about
fat, evaporated milk (tinned, not sweetened) can also be tried, but it
wouldn't taste the same.  To around 1.5 litre of soup (fruit and juice),
150-200 ml of light cream is enough for me, again your mileage may vary.

Additional fruits are best put in just before serving, as the cherry juice
will make most other fruits a liver-like red if left to pickle.

PS. I would caution against taking the cherry stones out as part of the
    preparation.  It makes a mess of the cherries and the soup is much
    less appetizing - even if safer for the teeth.

George Antony

Sammy (the stowester) writes:
>If a beginning reporter handed this in to me, I'd throw it back in his/her
>face and tell them to either explicitly source it or forget ever seeing it

You have reporters?  Are you a spy, or just one of those media scumbags?:-<

>in print. As far as any of the rest of us can tell, you've pulled these

"Us"?  Exactly how many of "you" are out there?  In any case, speak for
yourself, others may have a brain.

>"facts" out of your rear end. Either provide the source(s) of your
>information or shut up.

Well, I will not shut up.  But I guess you just answered my question about
free speech.  Would you tell us who else should shut up?  That's ok, need
to say no more.  At the very least, you seem honest, not wasting any time
pretending to be a democrat.

Barna Bihari

PS.  Hey Sammy boy, rumor has it that in real life you are Lyle's hair
dresser.:-)))  Wow!  Iiiiis thiiiis trueeee?  No wonder you advertise
him in each and every barf of yours.

"Chicken Paprika" and "Goulash"(that spelling sucks, big time!) are the
foods most often associated with Hungarian cuisine.  But how would
non-Hungarians know about the real, popular, comfort foods that Hungarians
eat?  It concerns me somewhat that someone may pick up a copy of Lang's "The
Cuisine of Hungary" and prepare a meal of "Peach in Champagne Soup",
"Stuffed Breast of Veal Bourgeoise", and "Baked Prunes Radva'nszky", and
believe that they're having an Hungarian meal.

Many of the contributors to this list indicated that the foods at Sunday
dinner are fairly typical.  What about other foods we eat?  What foods were,
or are, common in your kitchen?  Perhaps we can get a list going to help
non-Hungarians familiarize themselves with *real* Hungarian food.

I'll start by listing a few of the foods we ate often.

To:lto:tt ka'poszta          Cabbage rolls
Rakott krumpli               Layered potatoes
Tu'ro's te'szta              Noodles with cottage cheese
Krumplis te'szta             Noodles with potatoes
Po:rko:lt                    Porkolt

Now it's your turn.

Joe Szalai

Zoltan Szekely wrote:

> Antony Gyuri wrote:

> > Zoltan Szekely wrote:

> Nevertheless, the liberal tactic in Hungary is not a
> conspiracy. It is a very reasonable political stand.
> The only problem is, that although during the MDF-govt
> the necessary conditions for starting a growth were
> developed

We appear to differ very strongly on that.  As far as I know, by the
end of the MDF-led coalition's rule the economy was getting nowhere.
Privatization was dragging on, with the result of large subsidies
still paid to state-owned companies, reforms of the social security
and financial systems were a pipe dream, the government was covering
its deficit by large borrowings, the forint was getting overvalued.
Under such conditions, growth is due to the government artificially
keeping demand up, just the way it was under Kadar.

However, in a market economy, such growth only leads to a deterioration
of economic imbalance, throttling itself when the non-government sector
withdraws from the economy, as it does when a government is going off
the rails.

 (thanks to the professionalism of the eco-
> nomy politics of Bela Kadar), Hungary missed this
> chance in 94 because of mere ideological reasons of the
> new governing coalition.

By 1994 all economic reformers were chewed up an spat out by the
terminal economic petrification of the Antall/Boross course, and
the Horn government went along with that very same line for a whole
year before grudgingly accepting that it lead only to catastrophe.
So, if a budding growth was about to bloom in 1994, it could have
done so unmolested.  The fact is that there was no such thing.

You obviously hate the new governing coalition, with a passion that
is at the detriment of your own judgement.  Do you seriously claim that
new coalition stopped a growth that was about to take off, purely to
cheese some people off ?  If there was the smallest chance of sustainable
growth, the new coalition would have grabbed it, for they would have been
the ones to be able to bask in its warmth, claim kudos for it and expect
electoral gratitude.

Instead, according to you, they stopped growth dead, for mere ideological
reasons.  They may be very low in your estimation, but no politician is
going to commit political suicide by unnecessarily impoverishing its
own electorate.

No, sorry, such claims will only raise doubts about your own capacity
of rational thought.

> The experts of the FIDESz, Polgari Part, Kereszteny-
> demokrata Part, etc. all support the opinion, that the
> country was ready for growth in 94.

What a lame way to put it.  Growth is not something that a country is
ready for, only needing the cutting of a ribbon for it to roll, and
possible to be stopped dead in its track by not cutting the ribbon.

Besides, you must come up with more substantial evidence than transparent
efforts by the opposition to wash its hands of the economic mess it took
Hungary into by rewriting history.

> > > No further depts in the growths of the neighboring
> > > countries.
> > Exactly because they carried out the necessary restructuring that
> > Hungary has so far put off.
> Are you sure? Even Slovakia? Are you not kidding?

Slovakia is following the unique Czech model of restructuring with
some reforms forward, some delayed, with a strong government intervention
maintained.  Only time will tell if this is sustainable in the long run,
but at the moment their macroeconomic indicators (such as external balance
and inflation) are mostly better than Hungary's.

> > > The antisocial demamogiery can survive
> > > in Hungary now, because the growth is artificially
> > > blocked. They argue, that 'we have to cut in order
> > > to grow', but in fact they don't support growth at
> > > all.
> > This suggest that your solution would be not to cut and stimulate growth
> > at the same time.
> No. The growth would provide the base for the necessary
> cuts. (Also, people are more willing to accept cuts if
> they earn more.) That is as simple as it is.

Sheesh.  You need some remedial tutoring in public finance.  If there is
sufficient growth, there is less to no need to cut, as additional government
revenue will make up for the deficiency that otherwise can only be found
by cutting the budget.

> Economic troubles...
> > > They began with the failure of the
> > > 68 reforms. After 68 the communists wanted to show
> > > up success rather than the existing failures and
> > > began extensively borrowing.
> > Further proof of gaping holes in factual knowledge.  Borrowing started
> > after the oil-price shock of 1973, coinciding with the orthodox wing in
> > the Hungarian Socialist Workers' Party undoing much of the 68 reforms.
>
> Who has the gaps? 68 would not mean the YEAR 68. 68
> means the idea of "new machanism" in Hungary, which wan-
> ted reforms in the economy only, but not in the society.
> (One of the leaders of 68 was Aczel Gyorgy.)

Then it is sloppy wording, not sloppy knowledge.

> The failure of 68 did not happen in 68, but a couple of
> years later. 73 really gave a deadly shock to the ideas
> of the 68 reforms, but it was not the only reason for
> the complete failure.

What is this "68 has completely failed" business ?  The fact that
Hungary was in a better position for economic transformation in 1989
than any other ex-communist country was due to the process started in
1968 and continued, albeit with reversals, up to 1989.  It was the
increasing freedom of companies to set production structures,
prices and strategy; it was the creation of small businesses from
the side enterprises of agricultural cooperatives; it was the petty
businesses in the countryside built on household plots: it was this
that created in two decades an entrepreneurial class in Hungary
that was missing elsewhere in the COmmunist bloc, and it was this
process that allowed an accumulation of capital outside the govern-
ment sector.  These two together are prerequisites of a capitalist
transformation.  Add to this the revitalization of the reform in
the 1980s (surely, out of necessity, but there nevertheless) that
culminated in the taxation reform, uniquely Western by then ex-
communist standards.

"73" did not give a "deadly shock to the ideas of the 68 reforms",
far from it.  The reformers called for continued reforms to adapt to the
new situation of high commodity prices, it was the communist orthodoxy
that did not accept this solution, reversed the reforms instead and went
back to price fixing against the wind (hurricane, as it turned out).

By all means, the reforms were half-hearted and were not allowed
to progress as they should have by the institutional rigidities of
the communist system.  But to pretend that they "failed completely"
will only have you branded as an ideologically blinkered ignoramus.

> > > That's the point of Ms Gidai: we have to renegotiate
> > > about this huge depts inherited from an illegitime
> > > political course. (That's why you hate her so bad?)
> > Another irrational Hungarian reaction to the debt crisis: since the
> > debt was accumulated by the illegitimate communists (let us ignore
> > now the fact that much of it was not), the lenders should just accept
> > the partial wiping of the slate.
> No. The lenders should not accept it because of that
> only. They are not really interested in the politics
> inside the country. That's fine. But, the negotiations
> should be started because of that. And the idea of
> negotiations is completely justified because of that.
>
> Now it is the time, that you should come out, you economic/
> financial wizzards, and explain the good reason to the
> money lenders (and not the wrong reasons of doing nothing
> about the debt to the country). That's what is generally
> understood about loyality to your home country, and not
> the opposite.

So, no, the lenders should not give debt forgiveness because of having
lent to the nasty communists, but in the end they should, and it is
economists like me who say that they will do no such thing should talk
them into it unless we want to be branded disloyal to our country.

This would be hilarious if it were not so pathetic.  You would get just
as far sending a belated bill to Western Europe for having protected
them from the Turks in the 16th and 17th centuries.

> One more question left here. What did you mean by this?
>> The FORUM has been taken over by a noisy group of
>> political extremists (Nazis and their fellow travellers) whose debating styl
e
>> conforms with their unsavoury political views.  They have been busy fouling
>> their own nest to the extent that the original group of debaters have all bu
t
>> left.  They are not representative of Hungarians, neither in their political
>> views, nor in their debating style: they are merely a bunch of rednecks who
>> are abusing freedom of speech in general and Jo'zsi Hollo'si's facilities
>> in particular.       George Antony
> Does it mean, that everybody is a Nazi/fellow traveler/
> redneck/etc. on the FORUM?
>
> I'm really curious.                            Sz. Zoli

Not that it has anything to do with the issue on hand, but no.  I am usually
trying to choose my words carefully, and if I had wanted to say that I would
have done so.

George Antony