Article 62742 of soc.culture.romanian: Tue, 16 Jan 1996
From: Hermes1 >
Subject: Re: The wisdom of Mr. Nagy was Wally hates...
Message-ID: >
References: >
> >
>
>

On 16 Jan 1996  wrote:
> Well, finally we have you on record as being on the side of guys who
> approve bullets for pasztors, such as MLK and Laszlo Tokes.

Mark Cristian wrote:
$No matter how loose your interpretation of what I meant, or what I may
$approve of, the fact remains that, this is a risk a politician takes 
$more often than 'a pasztor'.

How many politicians were gunned down during communist rule in Romania? How
many members of the clergy were killed via imprisonment/torture/beatings etc?
How many politicians were killed during Soviet rule compared to the number of
clergy who were killed. In those times and circumstances, it was the Pasztors
who bore the lethal risks, not the other way around. Your postulate Mark may
be applicable in the advanced western countries, but it don't fly in your
homeland. This may change of course, but in the meantime, your postulate is as
valid as your trashy "limericks."
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 (Anonymous User) wrote:

>>
>> Can you provide me with your national written 33 (...)
>> 

>
>OK, Rick, in portuguese '33' is said "trinta e tres". (literally 'Thirty
>and three')
>In phonetic transcription you you can make it: [trintitrech]
>(sorry, true phonetic symbols are not avaliable in Usenet news)
> (...)
>Fernando Martinho
>Departamento de Linguas
>Universidade de Aveiro (PORTUGAL)


That "phonetic transcription" may work fine in portuguese, but not for an engli
sh 
speaker.
I think [treent@ ee traysh] (where @ stands for an "e" upside down), when read 
as an 
english "expression", is much closer to what is intended.


GoNF.

In article > Gabor Barsai,
 writes:

>Velemenyem szerint az Osztrak-Magyar Monarchia korszakanak es az utana
>kovetkezo Horthy korszak politikusai erosen korlatoztak a "nemzet politikai
>mozgasteret".

Szívesen látnék néhány tényt, érvet a kijelentésed alátámasztására: mikor,
hol, hogyan.

>Az OMM magyar politikai vezetoinek nem sikerult lazitani a viszonyt
>Ausztriaval, aminek az eredmenye az orszag 2/3-anak elvesztese.

Ez egy nagyon bonyolult, összetett kérdéskör. Képes lett volna az ország
lazítani a viszonyon ? Nem tudom. Megvolt-e a lazitáshoz szükséges gaz-
dasági háttér ? Szerintem nem. Szok-e ilyesmivel érdemben foglalkozni
egy  olyan dinamikusan fejlődő gazdaságú társadalom, mint az akkori ma-
gyar ? Szerintem nem. Fontos volt ez  a kérdéskör az akkori politikai
élet-
ben, Politikai viták tárgya volt-e ? Hajaj, de még mennyire.

>Horthy-nak meg szerintem az volt a hibaja, hogy arra epitette a politikajat,
>hogy "visszaszerezni amit lehet", ami ismet korlatozta a lehetosegeket.

Bármely cél elfogadása korlátozás. Az összes többi cél kizárásával jár
ugya-
nis együtt. Ennyit Horthy önkorlátozásáról. Ráadásul az egész nemzet közös
nevezőn volt ebben a kérdésben, az egész magyar nemzetet sokkolta ősi or-
szágrészeink elvesztése.

/*---*/
>A pelda kedveert, tegyuk fel, hogy indul egy part az 1998-as valasztasokon,
>amelynek a programja az orszag csatlakozasa a NATO-hoz es az EK-hoz, az idegen
>csapatok kirugasa, a szabadpiac, a nemzet szuverenitasa...stb...stb., viszont
>ha hatalomra jutnak, akkor a hivatalos nyelv a japan lesz, es a magyar
>lakossagnak a sintoista hagyomanyokat kell kovetni.

Ezt itt most  elpoénkodhatnám azzal, hogy ha a nagyanyám sárga lenne,
és csilingelne, akkor ő lenne a villamos. De nem fogom. Van a példádnak
egy olyan rétege, amivel számos esetben találkoztam, máskor másoknál.
Értelmiségi szüklátókörüség, feudalista kasztszellem nyoma fedezhető
fel, méghozzá irritálóan magas - miért nem esznek kalácsot ? - mennyi-
ségben.
Bájos, ahogy a 'nemzetellenesség' fogalom definíciójába is be akarod va-
lahogy gyömöszölni a demokráciát, közben a magyar társadalom nagyob-
bik részéről egyszerüen nem veszel tudomást vagy teljesen torz kép él
benned róluk.
Neked a magyar társadalom tisztán Barsai Gábor-féle értelmiségiekből
áll. Fel sem merül benned, hogy a lakosság túlnyomó része képtelen meg-
tanulni egy nyelvet, egy másik kultúrát, mert képességeik ezt nem teszik
lehetővé. Én pontosan emléxem négy- uszkve nyolcelemis katonatársaim-
ra, akik a takarodó után a klozeten ülve éjszaka magolták az 82 mintájú
aknavető részeit, heteken át. Azt, amit mi, zizisek, a tantermi oktatá-
son, amőbázás közben lazán, háttértanulással megtanultunk. Nyugtalaní-
tó mértékben voltunk kisebbségben...

Vedd tudomásul, hogy ha demokráciában gondolkodsz, akkor a magyar nem-
zetfogalom nem a te, hanem az ő igényeik szerint fog alakulni.  Illetve
el-
jön az idő , amikor tételesen az ő képviselőik fogják azt definiálni, és
nem az értelmiség egy szük köre fog összebarmolni valami egyedül üdvö-
zitőt, amit az éppen divatos/kurrens/legjobban fizető eszmeáramlatok
éppen feldobnak. Olyan csak gyarmati állapotban fordulhat elő, hogy az a
réteg definiálja, hogy mi a magyar nemzet, amelyik a legkevesebb egyén-
vagy csoportérdek füzi annak meglétéhez.Na nehogy már a farok csóválja
a kutyát !

Tamás

(...haazbeeli gondok miatt iirom meegegyszer, ha keetszer jelenneek meg
       elneezeest de az eredeti is eltuent                             ...)


 Kedves Peeter!

 Olvasvan cikkedet eltuenoedtem. Ugye nem gondolod komolyan, hogy a szemeely-
szaallitoo vaallalkozok csak ugy a homlokukra uetnek: hoppa! holnap blokaadolun
k.
Konzekvensen szeretneem a sztraajk fogalmaat nem hasznaalni. Sztraajkolni aall-
talaban a munkaadooja ellen szokott (?) az ember. Az eleebb emliitett urasaagok
pedig maasokat ees engem is a MOZGAASSZABADSAAGBAN korlaatoztak. Mert ugye, ha
a vasutasok sztraajkolnak akkor sem jutok el esetleg Lajosmizseere, de a mozdo-
nyokat meegsem toljaak a Nyugatibol a 6-os villamos siineire ki. Az ok nem csak
mueszaki jellegue (siinek). Haat kb. ez a kueloembseeg a terr... pardon blokaad
 
ees a sztraajk keozt .

Nem keerem. Ez egy jool eloekeesziitett, megszervezett ees katonai professziona
-
lizmussal kivitelezett akcioo (pl. hidak zaaraasa) volt. Ha voltaal Te is maar
katona akkor tudod miroel beszeelek. Ha esetleg teenyekre van szuekseeged, ja-
vaslom, hogy Budapesten jaartodban keerdezz meg "fueggetlen" taxisokat, akiket
nem lehetett olyan koennyen egy gusztustalan akcioora beszervezni arrool, hogy
eloezoe este mik is toerteentek. Vagy esetleg raadiooamatoeroeket, akik veletle
n
akkor az eeterben booklaasztak. Oek meseelnek majd arrool, hogy milyen iraanyuu
ees jellegue eeleenk raadiooforgalom volt akkor. 

 Politikailag megvizslatva keerdeest szerinted egy ilyen tervszerue akcio a kor
-
maanynak vagy az ellenzeeknek volt-e eerdekeeben?
Ne hogy feelreeerts; a politikaaeert mint olyaneert nem igazaan rajongok ees a 
kormaany anno eszmeeletlen balfeek moodon "kezelte" ezt a benzin aar uegyet. 
De veeguelis egy huszadranguu probleemaarool volt szoo ees ehez keepest a dolog
 
"tuul lett reagaalva".

Neekem egyik paart sem
volt igazaan szimpatikus, se az MDF se az SzDSz, se a FIDESZ. De az akkori or-
szaagos koezveelemeeny, hogy az MDF-ben toekkeluetoett huelye posztkommonistaak
(!) ultek a maasik oldalon meg csupa zsenik maar annyira ostoba, hogy csiipi a
szemem. Meeg az osztraak elektroonikus sajtoo is eleegge, persze kultuuraal
-tabban ees oovatosaabban, ezen a veelemeenyen volt ees a taxisokat paartolta. 
 

Az, hogy a Mindenki Nagypapaaja esetleg melyik magyar politikai iraanyhoz eerzi
magaat koezelebb elegendoe az akkori ees mai sajtoot koevetni. Itt nem csak a
Neepszabira gondolok, demokraacia van ugyebaar.


Apropoo teenyek. Az emberi gondolkodaasban eepen az a nagyszerue, hogy koevet-
keztetni ergo informaaciookat reprodukaalni tud (ertsd: teenyeket). Biztosan
ismered a Master Mind jaateekot. Ha, teszem fel a leepcsoehaazban egy irdatlanu
l
csookolodzoo fiatal paart laatok a lakaasajtajukon bemenni tudom, hogy odabenn
nem tarokkozni fognak. Hogy honnan? Tarokkhoz kevees keet ember!

Sarloos

Kedves Peeter!


 Olvasvaan cikkedet eltuenoedtem. Ugye azt Te sem gondolod komolyan, hogy egy 
szeep nap deelutaanjaan az orszaag (majdnem ) oesszes szemeelyfuvarozooja egy-
szer csak a homlokaara csap, hoppaa! holnap blokaadot csinaalunk. Azeert hasz-
naalom a blokaad kifejezeest, mert sztraajkolni alltalaaban a munkadoo ellen
szoktak ees a taxisok szabad vaallalkozook. De engem ees maasokat gaatoltak
a tisztelt urak a MOZGAASSZABADSAAGOMBAN. Ha a vasutasok sztraajkolnak akor sem
jutok esetleg el Lajosmizseere, de a Nyugatibool nem toljaak ki a mozdonyokat a
 6-os villamos siineire4, ees nem csak azert mert ez mueszakilag probleemaas fe
l-
adat. Haat ez a kueloembseeg a terr... pardon blokaad ees sztraajk koezt.

 Nem. Az egeesz uegy egy preciizen, orszaagosan, joo eloere megtervezett akcioo
volt amit ezek utaan katonai professzionalizmussal kiviteleztek (pl. hidak zaa-
sa stb). Ha voltaal Te is katona, biztos tudod, miroel beszeelek.

Ha esetleg tovaabbi teenyekre lenne szuekseeged, Budapesten jaartadban proobaal
j
taxisokat faggatni, akik szabaduuszook ees nem hagytaak egy ilyen gusztustalan
uegy eerdekeeben provokaalni magukat. Oek majd eerdekes dolgokat fognak Neked m
e-
seelni amegeloezoe esteeroel. Keerdezhetsz esetleg raadiooamatoeroeket is akik
akkor az eeterben booklaasztak arrool, hogy milyen ees kik alltal bonyoliitott
raadiooforgalom volt akkor a jellemzoe.

 Ha pedig politikalag vizslatjuk az uegyet szerinted kinek volt az eerdeke ez a
z
egeesz? A kormaanykoalicioonak vagy az ellenzeeknek? Nehogy feelre eerts, nem 
igazaan szeretem a politikaat mint olyat ees az akkori kormaany valami feelel-
metes balfek moodon vezette ezt a benzinaar uegyet eloe szerintem. De egy ilyen
,
veeguelis huszadranguu uegy kisse "tuul lett reagaalva". Meglepoe, hogy akkor
az orszaag meg volt gyoezoedve, hogy az MDF toekkeluetoett huelye posztkomcsik
gyuelekezete, a FIDESZ-ben meg az SZDSZWben csak zsenik uelnek. Mondom, egyik 
banda sem kedves szaamomra de az eleeb emliitett ostobasaag egyszeruen csiipi a
szemem. Most veeguelis megnyugodtam, hogy vannak hozzaam hasonloo veelemeenyek
is (HIX).

Ahhoz, hogy  a Mindenki Nagypapaaja milyen magyar politikai vonulathoz eerzi ma
-
gaat koezelebbaaloonak, eleeg ha csak a napi sajtoot figyelted. Ees nem csak
a Neepszabira gondolok, demokraacia van ugyebaar.

Apropoo teenyek. Az emberi gondolkodaasban eeppen az a nagyszerue, hogy koevet-
keztetni is tud ergo rekonstruaalni tud informaaciookat, magyaraan teenyeket.
Gondolj csak a Mister Mind nevue jaateekra! Ha, teszem azt a leepcsoehaazban eg
y
hevesen csookoloozoo paart laatok akik eppen a lakaasuk ajtajaat csukjak be fel
-
teetelezem, hogy odabent nem tarokkozni fognak. Mieert? Keet ember kevees hozza
a!

Sarloos

Happy New Year!

Lately I'vent had too much time to type. But I've tried to
read the discussions in some groups.
I'vent had too many possibilities to read Slovak or Czech
news, expect some electronic newspapers. But from Hungary
I've got news daily. Thanks for my some articles in s.c.magyar,
they send me now news by email. The Slovak news are always
typed by the Georg Soros girl: Sharon Fisher...

What has been changed since I last visited here in November?

Czech is still hazitating whether to follow Slovakia and send
her application to join in EU. Perhaps Czech is afraid about
sudeet problem, Germany is too near and too big.
But I doubt, that Slovakia would go alone in EU. No, they
certainly want Czechs there to support them..

I just got some latest information about economy in some
(former) eastern states. Slovakia is really doing well now
for she clearly the lowest foreign debt, 2.1 billion dollars.
Czech has 13 billion dollars and Hungary 33 billion dollars.
Poland 41.5.

Slovakia is also best in inflation rates, "only" 10.1%. Czech
is also doing pretty well with 11%. But it is good to notice,
that the development in Czech is now bad (last year 9.3%), but
in Slovakia good (year ago 13.8%).
Both Hungary and Sweden has now ca. 30% inflation rates.

We, in Finland have btw, the lowest inflation rate in Europe,
ca. 0.5% But we have to pay about it: half a million without work.

Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland

Dorin Taranul > wrote:
 () wrote:
>>And we all know how open minded you are, right?
>
>I do not know if "we all know" it or not, but, if you insist, I could
>post some of the previous letters and/or posting YOU personally wrote
>me on the subject! Remember them, Joe,  or have you conveniently
>forgot'em?!

Nice to know, Dorin, that you kept those posts of mine among your
treasures, but I doubt they were on the subject you chastised me on.

If they were, let me see them!  If they were not, let's just agree that
we may have similar views on most political issues except those involving 
the intersection of Hungarian and Romanian history.  That's too bad, but
it could be worse. 

Joe

You can get more colorful dreams by taking LSD!
Unnecessary to cry over Trianon!
In this world only one thing counts: which corporation do you work for!
Nation-states and borders are the things of the past!
I know, I am the great great grand son of the 8th (forgotten)HUNGARIAN
Veze'r!
The one that A'rpad sent ahead to see what can be stolen in Europe!
My tribe settled around Kraha'cs. Azo'ta is nyomja'k kraha'csot!
Ku:lo:nben is tiz-hu'sz e'v mu'lva magyar orsza'g tele lesz Hutukkal meg
Tucikkal e's az U:llo"i uton fogja'k egyma'st me'sza'rolni!
Ku:lo:nben, ha ma'r sira'nkozni akarunk a to:rte'nelemgo"l akkor azt ke'ne
megsiratni, hogy mi a francnak kellett olyan o"smagyaroknak mint a
Petrovics (alias Peto"fi) meg a to"bbi echte ungarische a"lmagyarnak az
osztra'kok ellen uszi'tani 48-ban? Nem lenne jobb, ha mindenki ne'metu:l
besze'lne?
Na, meg azta'n a Versaille-i be'ke sokkal nagyobb diszno'sa'g volt mint a
Trianon!

Na, ebbo"l ennyi ele'g, isten hozta a XX. sza'zad ve'ge'n!

Ga'bor Wikipil alias 

hungarian

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by 
John Horvath > 
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via 
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

Szucs Andras osmagyar alnev alatt (gyanu, nem teny) kovetkezot irja
Pellionisz Andras a minap:

>Sot, ha valaki kuld egy (barmilyen tartalmu) levelet ide
>

>
>akkor SIMA E-MAILBEN megkapja az SCM cenzurazatlan vita-anyagat,
>automatikusan, minusz a kulonbozo (nagyterjedelmu) listakat.

Forditok: P.A.-t kitaszajtjak a HIX-rol, erre osszebarkacsol egy
gateway-t, amirol kicenzurazza az egesz HIX-et.  Bravooooooooo!!!
Bosszu a javabol.  :-)

Udv,  ,
Nagy Peter

Atto'l fu:ggetlenu:l, hogy nem e'rdekel a sport, ( Valo'ja'ban mit
va'ltoztat az e'letu:nko: ha a Fradi nyer vagy a Chicago Bears?) van egy
megjegyze'sem!
Az egyik sport amelyben a magyarok ero"sek az a Judo! Barcelona'ban a
magyar judo'sok 4 e'rmet nyertek! Egy arany, egy ezu:st, ke't bronz!
hungarian

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Bizony, bizony! Mindig u'gy gondoltam, hogy az igazsa'g kia'llja a vita
pro'ba'jat!
Ne'metorsza'gban pedig a compuserv do:nti el hogy miro"l lehet vitatkozni
e's miro"l nem. MINTHA A HITLER PARANCSA'RA CSINA'LNA'K!
   Ez aze'rt is iro'nikus, mert az egyik betiltott te'ma ko:r a Holocaust.
Ha valaki nema hivatalosan ko:zolt sza'mokat isme'telgeti akkor a
Deutch-ok a bo:rto:nbe rakja'k!
   Szege'ny Galileo ma'r megrohadt volna a bo:rto:nben it nagy "szabad"
Europa'ban!! 
   Szerintem semmi se olyan szent, hogy ne lehessen ro'la vitatkozni!
   Me'g akkor sem, ha e'lo" tanu'k ra'd mutatnak mint ahogy ra' mutattak a
Demjanjuk-ra. (ko:zben nem is volt olyan nagy gazember mint amekkora'nak a
"szemtanu'k" esku: alatt emle'keztek ra'!!!!!!, Kideru:lt, hogy e'letukben
nem is la'tta'k!)
   Ha valaki azt a'llitja, hogy az IGAZSA'G csak az O" monopo'liuma, annak
e'n nem tudok mindent u'gy elhinni, ahogyan O" foglalja szavakba. 

Kiva'csi vagyok a szbadsa'g bajnokai magyar orsza'gon hogyan la'tja'k ezt?

Ga'bor Wikipil
hungarian

Adrian Cosoroaba > wrote:
>> From: Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) >
>> Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
>> Subject: Population Statistics
>> 
>> 
>> "Alexander N. Bossy" > on 17 Jan 96
>writes:
>> 
>> >                                             60% of the population
>> >on the territory transfered back to Hungary under the terms of the
>> >Vienna diktat was also ethnic Romanian. Consequently, it most
>certainly
>> >was not "far more based on ethnic self-determination". 
>>Alexander
>> 
>> Would you care to document your population statistics? Also, the term
>> "diktat" is out of place since the Romanian government agreed to, and
>> indeed was a signatory to the agreement returning the predominantly,
>> though not exclusively, Hungarian populated areas of Erdely to
>> Hungary.
>> 
>> CSABA K. ZOLTANI
> 
> ============
> Well, for Hungarians Viena was not a "diktat" but for Romanians it was. 
>They either had to sign or fight Germany along with Hungary.
>Alexander should know better since his grandfather Raoul Bossy was a
>direct participant at the "negotiations" or lack of them in Vienna 1940, he
>was at the time the Romanian ambasador to Germany.  His personal
>notes are available at the Hoover Institude at Stanford University (in
>Romanian)
>You want statistics ?  I am sure somebody has some, somewhere to
>show the numbers. :-)
>
>Adrian Cosoroaba
>

I would say we have yo deal with the problem in a more principled manner. . The
 
Vienna Arbitration was a "diktat" not only from a Romanian perspective, but fro
m an objective 
standpoint. This is so because, although signed (purportedly agreed) by the Rom
anian 
representatives, the "agreement" was reached with the violation of the free wil
l of Romania. A 
treaty signed (also at Vienna) 30 years later - the Vienna Convention on the La
w of Treaties 
(1969) - counts among sources for treaty invalidity the following; coercion of 
a representative of 
a State (Art. 51) and coercion of a State by the threat or use of force (Art. 5
2 - note the term 
'threat'). For those which are familiar with the circumstances of the "negotiat
ion" process it's 
worthless to give explanatory factual details.

While somebody could object that the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties w
as e signed but in 
1969 (and entered into force only in 1981), I shall say that it is universally 
 considered that 
the Convention is - to a great extent - only codifying already existing princip
les and rules of 
international law, formed through a customary process. Consequently,  many of t
hese principles and 
specific rules were already existing at the time of the Vienna Arbitration; amo
ng them, 
particularly those concerning the invalidity of a treaty, which may be need a l
onger time to be 
established. For those interested, a 'classic' of the field, namely Lord McNair
 - in "Law of 
Treaties", Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1961 - discusses rules existing prior to th
e Vienna Convention 
(see also his book from 1938, which reffers only to British practice). For an  
extensive  analysis 
of the distinction between codifyied rules (previously customary) and rules whi
ch are a 
'progressive development' of the law (then introduced in the Convention,), ther
e is a US 
Department of State report of 1971, advanced to the Senate (S.Exec.Doc.L., 92d 
Cong. 1st Sess.).


Best wishes,

ACD

Kedves Sarlos Ur!

Nagyon sok ponton egyetertunk es nehany ponton nem. Megragadom hat az 
alkalmat...

In article >,
   Consultant > wrote:

> Olvasvaan cikkedet eltuenoedtem. Ugye azt Te sem gondolod komolyan, hogy egy 
>szeep nap deelutaanjaan az orszaag (majdnem ) oesszes szemeelyfuvarozooja 
egy-
>szer csak a homlokaara csap, hoppaa! holnap blokaadot csinaalunk. Azeert 
hasz-

Termeszetesen ez egy jol szervezett akcio volt. Van a taxiban radio es igen 
nagy ontudat. Mindez meg nem bizonyitja, hogy az egeszet az SZDSZ szervezte.

>naalom a blokaad kifejezeest, mert sztraajkolni alltalaaban a munkadoo ellen
>szoktak ees a taxisok szabad vaallalkozook. De engem ees maasokat gaatoltak
>a tisztelt urak a MOZGAASSZABADSAAGOMBAN. Ha a vasutasok sztraajkolnak akor 
sem
>jutok esetleg el Lajosmizseere, de a Nyugatibool nem toljaak ki a mozdonyokat 
a
> 6-os villamos siineire4, ees nem csak azert mert ez mueszakilag probleemaas 
fel-
>adat. Haat ez a kueloembseeg a terr... pardon blokaad ees sztraajk koezt.

Szeretnem hangsulyozni, hogy teljesen egyetertunk. A blokad szerintem egyszeru 
szervezett buncselekmeny volt. Mindvegig csodalkoztam, hogy miert akar 
mindenki politikai ugyet csinalni a dologbol. Ez az atpolitizalas akadalyozta 
meg az egyszeru szamomra rendkivul logikus megoldast ami valoszinuleg minden 
mukodo demokraciaban vegbe ment volna, miszerint a rendorseg finoman de 
hatarozottan eltakaritja a dolgot. Semmi tomegbe lovetes meg ilyesmi, csak 
felhivni a figyelmuket, hogy tilosban parkolnak, aztan elszallitani a 
kocsikat. Semmi esetre sem kellett volna ugy csinalni mintha ez politikai harc 
lett volna. Sajnos ha sokan bunoznek az politika.

Jomagam abban az idoben korbekarikaztam jooreg kerekparommal, elveztem a jo 
levegot, es neha elkialtottam magam, "hulye taxisok". Persze csak tavolrol 
mert igen felos vagyok.

[...]
> Ha pedig politikalag vizslatjuk az uegyet szerinted kinek volt az eerdeke ez 
az
>egeesz? A kormaanykoalicioonak vagy az ellenzeeknek? Nehogy feelre eerts, nem 
>igazaan szeretem a politikaat mint olyat ees az akkori kormaany valami 
feelel-
>metes balfek moodon vezette ezt a benzinaar uegyet eloe szerintem. De egy 
ilyen,
>veeguelis huszadranguu uegy kisse "tuul lett reagaalva". Meglepoe, hogy akkor
>az orszaag meg volt gyoezoedve, hogy az MDF toekkeluetoett huelye 
posztkomcsik

Nem, a posztkomcsikat ugy mondtak az SZDSZ-ben vannak, a tobbi OK :)

>gyuelekezete, a FIDESZ-ben meg az SZDSZWben csak zsenik uelnek. Mondom, egyik 
>banda sem kedves szaamomra de az eleeb emliitett ostobasaag egyszeruen csiipi 
a
>szemem. Most veeguelis megnyugodtam, hogy vannak hozzaam hasonloo 
veelemeenyek
>is (HIX).

Egy dolog valamit kivaltani, es masik dolog megprobalni hasznot huzni belole. 
A politikusnak az a dolga, hogy minden szar helyzetbol hasznot huzzon.
Pont az akcio buncselekmeny jellege az ami azt mondatja velem, hogy az SZDSZ 
nem lehetett annyira buta, hogy ilyet csinaljon. Szerintem a kozvelemeny 
kozelsem szimpatizalt annyira a taxisokkal mint a media.

>
>Ahhoz, hogy  a Mindenki Nagypapaaja milyen magyar politikai vonulathoz eerzi 
ma-

Moha Bacsi? Ugyanaz aki az hazudott?

>gaat koezelebbaaloonak, eleeg ha csak a napi sajtoot figyelted. Ees nem csak
>a Neepszabira gondolok, demokraacia van ugyebaar.

Neepszabi? Az talan megse. Olyan jol indult minden, miert sertegetjuk egymast? 
:)

>Apropoo teenyek. Az emberi gondolkodaasban eeppen az a nagyszerue, hogy 
koevet-
>keztetni is tud ergo rekonstruaalni tud informaaciookat, magyaraan teenyeket.
>Gondolj csak a Mister Mind nevue jaateekra! Ha, teszem azt a leepcsoehaazban 
egy
>hevesen csookoloozoo paart laatok akik eppen a lakaasuk ajtajaat csukjak be 
fel-
>teetelezem, hogy odabent nem tarokkozni fognak. Mieert? Keet ember kevees 
hozzaa!

Igen a kovetkeztetes fontos, de a modja sem mindegy. A peldabeli par peldaul 
egesz biztosan csak meg akarja teveszteni a kornyezetet, es valojaban valami 
rosszban santikal. Magyarorszagon ugyanis ha egy parnak mar "lakasa" van akkor 
regen elfelejtett csokolodzni, de talan mar a hamut is mamunak ejti.

Es eppen itt a lenyeg. Mivel logikank kulonbozo, nagyon kulonbozo, neha 
tudatosan vissza kell tartanunk magunkat "kovetkezteteseikben" es nemi teret 
engednunk a megfigyelesnek.

Hagy meseljek el egy igaz csaladi tortenetet.
Szeretett nagymamam igazi nagy kovetkezteto es elorelato. Tortent, hogy ocsem 
a Balatonra keszult kocsival. Nagymama ellatta a szokasos tanacsokkal, es meg 
megtoldotta avval, hogy vigyazzon a szembejovokre, mert a "vasarnapi" autosok 
kiszamithatatlanok. Ocsem kapasbol haritott, sztradan mennek, nincs 
szembeforgalom. Ennyiben maradtak, de Nagymamam azert tudta amit tudott.
Masnap ocsem meselte, hogy maga sem akarta elhinni, de valahol Fehervar utan, 
a vak sotet ejszakaban, egyszercsak felragyogott ket fenyszoro. Szemben!
Igen, igen osszeakadtak egy rendkivul valoszinutlen amokkal aki szembe ment a 
sztradan.
Na most akkor: Nagyanyo jol kovetkeztetett?

SzP.



--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------

Aurel Ciobanu-Dordea  > wrote:
>
>All the treaties of peace are concluded between parties who have 
>not equal bargaining power, but they are not always concluded in 
>the violation of the rules of conduct among nations. There is a 

I didn't say that they they were _always_ concluded so.  There were
probably quite a few that were concluded between parties exhausted
fighting a protracted war, with no hope of wictory by either side.

>Can somebody disregard also the self-dissolution of the 
>Austrian-Hungarian Empire,

I always have to laugh reading about the collapse of the Monarchy as
"self-dissolution."  You know darn well that it collapsed due to
losing the war.  The victors did not even allow the Habsburgs to
continue as rulers even if Austria or Hungary would have wanted to keep
them. 

>separation intervened? Was it imposed at Trianon? I would say no.
>The principle of self-determination was not even imposed 
>automatically to the looser, but a consultation of the ethnic 
>communities was organized in the concerned territory (with the 
>technical accuracy allowed by the harsh post-war and pretty 
>primitive times).

Oh, come now.  Holding genuine plebiscites was not beyond the technical
means of the time, yet they did not order them.  Instead, they let a
handful of self-appointed leaders act in behalf of national groups.
Like Masaryk and Benes for the Czechs and Slovaks, and Bucharest for
the Transylvanian Romanians.  What "consultation of ethnic communities"
are you talking about?  Don't tell me about Alba Iulia, please.  We
covered that charade a few times already.

>The history is ironical: in 1919, the then Prime-minister of 
>Romania, Ion I.C. Bratianu, and the diplomats persuaded their 
>counter-parts at the negotiation that the new border be settled 
>more to the west, near Szeged, and including Debrecen, so that 
>the whole Romanian population be included in the Romanian 
>kingdom.

You mean even Debrecen had Romanian majority?  That sure would be news
to most Hungarians.  But, I guess, if attached to the rest of the
aquisition and looking at the total, you could still end up with
a Romanian majority. 

> Consequently, King Ferdinand I and Queen Maria decided 
>to travel there, following the trace of the projected border (the 
>area seemed to be previously "cleaned" of the communist  
>administration by the Romanian troops). On this travel by horse, 
>The King was welcomed by the local population (probably in a 
>selective manner, but anyway...). While at Debrecen, The King has 
>received, among others, a delegation leaded by a certain Miklos 
>Horthy, which kissed the royal hand and advanced the proposal 
>made by a part of the Hungarian nobility, that King Ferdinand 
>should accept to take the Crown of Hungary and thus create a 
>personal union and cure future litigation between Hungarians and 
>Romanians.

I have to admit, I never heard of this particular story before and
it sounds quite bizarr to me.  Especially the Horthy bit.
Perhaps Eva knows something about it. 

> Unfortunately, and shamely, I have to recognize that I 
>cannot remember how did the King refused, and for what reasons 
>the "westward" frontier project failed (for the Romanians, I read 
>this facts in a book published in Bucharest in 1981 or '83 - 
>"Romania and the Paris Peace Conference" - and co-authored, among 
>few others by Viorica Moisuc and (?) Ion Calafeteanu. I dare to 

Considering the year and place of the publishing, I am perhaps allowed
to maintain my scepticism about the whole story.

Thanks for the otherwise interesting contribution,

Joe

Jorma Kyppo > writes:

>What has been changed since I last visited here in November?

>Czech is still hazitating whether to follow Slovakia and send
>her application to join in EU. Perhaps Czech is afraid about
>sudeet problem, Germany is too near and too big.

Where did you read that? I mean that they are hesitating.

>But I doubt, that Slovakia would go alone in EU. No, they
>certainly want Czechs there to support them..

Do you really think this kind of decision making plays any role ? And I really
don't see any danger of Slovakia going there alone. I only wish you were
right. The real question is, will Slovakia become member at the same time as
Czech Rep., Poland and Hungary ?

>I just got some latest information about economy in some
>(former) eastern states. Slovakia is really doing well now
>for she clearly the lowest foreign debt, 2.1 billion dollars.
>Czech has 13 billion dollars and Hungary 33 billion dollars.
>Poland 41.5.

Where do the numbers come from ? (they sound reasonable, the last time I saw
this kind of data it was CR - 9 , SR - 4)

Slovakia is also best in inflation rates, "only" 10.1%. Czech
>is also doing pretty well with 11%. But it is good to notice,
>that the development in Czech is now bad (last year 9.3%), but
>in Slovakia good (year ago 13.8%).

As far as I know this is nonsense, the numbers I saw were something like

		    1995             Dec
CR                   9.2%             7.3%
SR                   8.0%             6.5%

out of my head. Not so sure about Slovak numbers, but definitely not more
than 10%.



--
Matej Lexa                              At present: 
Irrigation Research Inst.               Dept. of Plant Biology
Bratislava, SLOVAKIA                    University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaig
n
********************** "There's only one kind of music." **********************
*

In article >,  > wrote:
>By the way Valmossy's flame refers to an overreaction of Iliescu to the fact
>that the Hungarian national Day had been celebrated with hymn and flags in 
>*Romanian official buildings* leading to some national tentions in the 
>country. And pointing the attention to this single aspect is like 
>saying Hungary is the country which has brought the earthly rests of its
>Nazi president Horty (Hitler's friend and ally) and burried them with honour,
>after 1990.

It's bad enough that you can't even spell Vamossy's name right, it's
even worse you then go on to distort the historical record about Horthy
who was neither a Nazi, nor a friend or willing ally of Hitler.
In fact, after Horthy's declaration of cessation of hostilities against
the Allies, the Nazies, occupying Hungary, have imprisoned Horthy and
sent his son to the Mauthausen concentration camp while they placed 
their puppets in charge of Hungary.  This was recognized by the victors
after WW II by not charging Horthy with war crimes and let him live
out the rest of his life in exile.  His body was reburied in Hungary
recently in a private ceremony, organized by the surviving members of
his family and the associatation of former Hungarian navy men.  It was
not a government ceremony even though the Hungarian media covered it
prominently.

>PM

JP

As his name often came up on these news groups in recent weeks, I thought
I might as well break the news to you that Prof. Imre Boba, the noted
historian, died last week after a long illness.

May he rest in peace.

Joe Pannon

P.S.: Have you heard it already, Liviu?

How often can you see Slovak chauvinism as openly as in the following
article?  Seeing it demonstrated here may make the news items about
Slovakia's minority policies a bit more real to you.  (I edited out 
some header and blank lines.)
---------------

From  Sun Jan 21 01:08:39 PST 1996
Article: 17264 of bit.listserv.slovak-l
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: gazdik phenomena(l)
Date: 20 Jan 1996 17:59:36 GMT
Organization: -
Lines: 78
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup104-107.swipnet.se

#In article >,  
#says...
#>
#>I just realize, I must have misundertsood what the following quote had

#">to do with my comment.  But it gave him another excuse to belly-ache
#>about real and 

#imagined injustices 

       ?????

#done to the Slovak people by
#>Hungarians.  My Goodness!  Reading such stuff, one would have to 
#believe
#>that today's Slovaks carry their history as a 100 kilo bag on their
#>shoulder whenever they deal with Hungarians.

      this is a beautiful display of colour blindedness.
      1.   ever heard of duary, bugar caky and nagy, the saboteurs
      of the slovak statehood?
      2.   ever heard any statements made by the foregoing
      hungarian representatives????

#Contrast this with the
>Hungarian attitude toward their former oppressors, the Turks or the
>Austrians; no Hungarian in his right mind would think of carrying that
>historic baggage into their current relationship with those countries.

      holy hungarians (those that have any mind)!!!   can it be because
      the turks ignore them and so do the austrians?

#>
#>Or is the Hungarian rule too fresh in the Slovak collective memory?
#>Well, that would make some difference, except the constant rehash of
#>a "1000-year" oppression even as we also hear contradicting stories
#>about Slovakia having been better developed than the rest of Hungary 
#during
#>Hungarian rule.  Some oppression!

         yes, if you agree qualitative differences.   if slovakia
         had any dispute with, say, the moravians, austrians, czechs
         or poles, the discussion would go along entirely different 
         lines, because those are peoples with whom you can talk
         in a normal manner.   

#>
#>>    in my opinion, I don't think there is such a phenomenon. There IS
#>>an awareness that there is a problem with Hungarian minorities that
#>>does not exist with the others in Slovakia, and there is still the
#>>remembrance of the difficulties Slavs had under the old Empire and as
#>>recently as 1938-1945.  

         this is a lovely simplification.   is there any state
         in which there are hungarians and NO problmes????????

#These are real problems that need a solution,

         go and try to expalin it to the hysterical hungarian mind...

#>>not merely prejudices.   It should also be remembered that official
#>>Czechoslovak military doctrine during the 1918 - Munich period
#>>identified Hungary as the principal enemy with which Czechoslovakia
#>>was most likely to go to war and against which Czechoslovakia directed
#>>most of its counter-intelligence.  The Jehlicka and Tuka cases and the
##>>recognized as a threat only later (too late).  Such experiences are
#>>quite recent, remembered by people who lived through them, and they
#>>affect feelings even today.  I doubt that it is blind hatred.

         why should anybody go as little as 5 minutes back in time,
         when he can listen to duray & comp. in real time????

------------------- end of article -------------------

Joe Pannon

 () wrote:

>On this basis Trianon was also a diktat because Hungary was coerced to
>sign the treaty.  I suspect there was plenty of coersion used also in
>the Dayton Agreement.  I venture to say, that most treaties concluding a
>war have some element of coercion.  Either by the victor, or by some
>superior power(s) outside of the warring parties.


Well, it's really a venture to say that most treaties concluding 
a war have some element of coercion, in the sense you are saying 
that, because I suspect you mean that "the winner takes all," and 
writes the history, including the rules of law to be applied 'ex 
post facto.' I find such an ideea to be inspired by the 
'Realpolitik' and as beeing cynnical. But it counts more the fact 
that it is false.

All the treaties of peace are concluded between parties who have 
not equal bargaining power, but they are not always concluded in 
the violation of the rules of conduct among nations. There is a 
difference between treaties consecrating the mere victory of the 
strong upon the weak, and treaties which call for the application 
of different principles to solve a previous violation of the 
rules of conduct by the looser. For instance, the French-Prussian 
war closed by the peace signed in 1871 (which shifted Alsace and 
Lorraine from F. to P.) was only the fruit of coercion. The peace 
arrangements intervened following the WW I were grounded 
essentially on the concept of "nation-state" and on the principle 
of nationalities, emerged in the previous period, conventionally 
starting with the French revolution.

At that time, that principle and that concept were considered as 
being equitable (fair) and considered as a progress for all the 
peoples living under foreign rule. This was in the mind of almost 
all the political leaders of the time, and became law, because 
multi-national entities were considered as fictitious, maintained 
only by the force of one nation upon the others (or upon 
minorities). Accordingly, the right of self-determination for 
peoples living under foreign rule and forming compact communities 
was recognized. 

Can somebody disregard also the self-dissolution of the 
Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and the fact that the dissolution has 
started in the nineteenth century (the second half), when a 
separation intervened? Was it imposed at Trianon? I would say no.
The principle of self-determination was not even imposed 
automatically to the looser, but a consultation of the ethnic 
communities was organized in the concerned territory (with the 
technical accuracy allowed by the harsh post-war and pretty 
primitive times). I will not discuss here if some engagements 
were undertook, and if such promises were later kept, or to what 
extent were kept, or why there were derrogations. The fact is 
that the majority desired the separation and the unification with 
the Romanian kingdom. If the force was used at Trianon as a 
persuasive tool, then it was to support historically legitimated 
principles (the nation-state and the principle of 
self-determination) and the accomplishment of a willfull change 
of territorial status. This was perceived as legal (according to 
the law) and legitimate (morally consistent). Hungary did not 
agreed to a mere coercion, but agreed to respect principles 
(among them it was also the inviolability of the borders. Hungary 
tried later to cure potential allegation of violation of this 
rule by involving the arbitration of third parties).

The history is ironical: in 1919, the then Prime-minister of 
Romania, Ion I.C. Bratianu, and the diplomats persuaded their 
counter-parts at the negotiation that the new border be settled 
more to the west, near Szeged, and including Debrecen, so that 
the whole Romanian population be included in the Romanian 
kingdom. Consequently, King Ferdinand I and Queen Maria decided 
to travel there, following the trace of the projected border (the 
area seemed to be previously "cleaned" of the communist  
administration by the Romanian troops). On this travel by horse, 
The King was welcomed by the local population (probably in a 
selective manner, but anyway...). While at Debrecen, The King has 
received, among others, a delegation leaded by a certain Miklos 
Horthy, which kissed the royal hand and advanced the proposal 
made by a part of the Hungarian nobility, that King Ferdinand 
should accept to take the Crown of Hungary and thus create a 
personal union and cure future litigation between Hungarians and 
Romanians. Unfortunately, and shamely, I have to recognize that I 
cannot remember how did the King refused, and for what reasons 
the "westward" frontier project failed (for the Romanians, I read 
this facts in a book published in Bucharest in 1981 or '83 - 
"Romania and the Paris Peace Conference" - and co-authored, among 
few others by Viorica Moisuc and (?) Ion Calafeteanu. I dare to 
say that at stake are not these reasons, but the question if such 
a union would have been positive or negative (excuse my weird use 
of tenses)? Is it possible that Romanians and Hungarians live 
together ignoring frontiers?

Another issue is also, in my view, if the nation-State is still 
actual, and if yes, which is the meaning of such a concept and, 
moreover, how do we practice it?

(I am not ignoring the issue with Dayton Agreements, but ... 
"tomorrow is another day" as well!)


ACD

In article >,
Aurel Ciobanu-Dordea  > wrote:
>
>I would say we have yo deal with the problem in a more principled manner. . Th
e 
>Vienna Arbitration was a "diktat" not only from a Romanian perspective, but fr
om an objective 
>standpoint. This is so because, although signed (purportedly agreed) by the Ro
manian 
>representatives, the "agreement" was reached with the violation of the free wi
ll of Romania. A 
>treaty signed (also at Vienna) 30 years later - the Vienna Convention on the L
aw of Treaties 
>(1969) - counts among sources for treaty invalidity the following; coercion of
 a representative of 
>a State (Art. 51) and coercion of a State by the threat or use of force (Art. 
52 - note the term 
>'threat'). For those which are familiar with the circumstances of the "negotia
tion" process it's 
>worthless to give explanatory factual details.

On this basis Trianon was also a diktat because Hungary was coerced to
sign the treaty.  I suspect there was plenty of coersion used also in
the Dayton Agreement.  I venture to say, that most treaties concluding a
war have some element of coercion.  Either by the victor, or by some
superior power(s) outside of the warring parties.

Joe

Hermes1  > wrote:
>
>On 18 Jan 1996  wrote:
>> doing the same, among them Martin Luther King, in order to prove that
>> your blanket opposition of clergymen in politics is not universally
>> shared.
>
>I never said that Rev, Tokes was the only busybody in the universe !

Well, so MLK was another busybody then.  Why does that sound like you
are sympathetic to the idea of "terminating" such busybodies?
>
>That "else" being a bullet, is only your dream. No doubt the 'martirdom' of
>Tokes may be amongst a Magyar revisionist's sweatest desires.

You might as well accuse the American blacks with that in connection to
MLK.

>I am merely pointing out that one cannot have it both ways. Of course others
>have done it, but that puts them in a different category. They may be still
>clergymen, but they are also politicians. 

Thank you, m. c., that will be all.  You may leave the witness stand.

Panonescu

In >,  (JudoHun) writes:
>Bizony, bizony! Mindig u'gy gondoltam, hogy az igazsa'g kia'llja a vita
>pro'ba'jat!
>Ne'metorsza'gban pedig a compuserv do:nti el hogy miro"l lehet vitatkozni
>e's miro"l nem. MINTHA A HITLER PARANCSA'RA CSINA'LNA'K!
>   Ez aze'rt is iro'nikus, mert az egyik betiltott te'ma ko:r a Holocaust.
>Ha valaki nema hivatalosan ko:zolt sza'mokat isme'telgeti akkor a
>Deutch-ok a bo:rto:nbe rakja'k!

Tobbszoros tevedesben vagy, kedves Gabor.

Nemetorszagban nem a Compuserve donti el, hogy mirol lehet vitatkozni.
Az emlitett ceg az egyik a sok forgalmazo (provider) kozott, es most
epp a fejukre koppintottak a gyermekpornografia miatt.  Csak nekik, a
tobbinek nem is.  Ha pedig a holocaustrol vagy egyeb hasonszoru temakrol
szeretnel ertekezni nemetul, Nemetorszagban, akkor javaslom a
de.soc.politik-ot, amelyet vilagszerte tovabbitanak a news-serverek,
fuggetlenul attol hogy mennyire kakil a nadragjaba a Compuserve.  Annyit
beszelsz a holocaustrol, amennyit jolesik.  Egyebkent is abszurd, hogy
pont Nemetorszagban ne lehetne errol a temarol beszelni.  Meg tudnad
nevezni az informacioforrasodat?

Mielott a nemeteket pocskondiazod, nem artana megvizsgalni a tenyeket.

>[...]

Udv,  ,
Nagy Peter

The chechen war is about oil! And about who is going to control the flow
of Oil!
Not about ethnic problems.
hungarian

On Jan 08, 1996 07:17:36 in article <Re: Bela Kun>, 
(EvaB459762)' wrote: 
 
>In article >,  
>(Alexander N. Bossy) writes: 
> 
>>Bowing to public opinion, however, he accepted Romania's 
>>decision not to enter the war on the side of the Cental Powers 
> 
>That is talking about King Ferdinand. That might be so, but more 
>importantly, I think it was more advantageous to Romania to side with the 
>Allied side. After all, the Allies could promise the delivery of 
>Transylvania in case of the defeat of the Central Powers. But if Romania 
>sided with Germany and Austria-Hungary, the only territory Romania could 
>have possibly acquired was Bessarabia. 
 
Hi Eva: 
 
In fact, early on in the war, Romania did set up an effective bidding war
between the Entente and the Central Powers.  As you point out, she found
the Entente's promisse of Transylvania much more appealing than the Central
Power's promisse of Bessarabia.  Nevertheless, given Romania's location,
the Central Powers were in a very strong geographical possition. 
Consequently, Romania waited until it seemed clear that the Central Powers
were going to lose - or at least could not win.  The collapse of Russia
made Romania's possition completely untenable. 
 
> As it turned out Romania was very 
>lucky: both the Central Powers and Russia collapsed and thus Romania 
>managed to get territories from both belligerents. 
 
Actually, I'd argue that it wasn't so much that Romania was lucky as that
her foreign policy starting in 1856, till Carol II set up the Royal
Dictatorship was brilliant.  After all, she came out stronger, larger, and
more important from every war that she faught.  And, this was always
against done despite strong opposition from the regional great powers, and
less than full support from the other great powers. 
 
>The only legal problem I see with the fulfillment of the Treaty of 
>Bucharest--which promised large chunks of Hungarian territory as far as 
>the Tisza River to Romania--that the treaty specified that Romania would 
>lose its right to these territories if she signed a separate peace. 
>Romania was defeated soundly by--as I mentioned earlier-- not by the 
>Austro-Hungarian but by the German army, and was forced to sign a separate

>peace (May 7, 1918 = Treaty of Bucharest). Therefore, she lost her right 
>granted to her by the Treaty of Bucharest to the promised Hungarian 
>territories. 
 
That was also the Western point of view in Paris (much to Romania's
annoyance). 
 
> Therefore, Romania hastily reentered the war a couple of days 
>before the November 11 Armistice. There was a bit of inconsistency, 
>however, in the Romanian stand on this issues. On the one hand, Romania 
>argued that since the Romanian parliament did not ratify the Treaty of 
>Bucharest it actually never entered into force. On the other hand, if that

>was the case, why did Romania re-declare war again on the Central Powers? 
 
Romania wanted to make sure that she'd get what the Entente had promissed
her.  Thus, by claiming that the Treaty of Bucharest had never taken
effect, she'd still have a legitimate claim to the territories promissed
her.  On the other hand, making certain that she was still at war with the
Central Powers was likely to strengthen her possition at the peace
conference, as it probably did, since Romania was treated as one of the
Entente Powers. 
 
Alexander

Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.magyar 
From: (Alexander N. Bossy) 
Subject: Re: Bela Kun 
Organization: The Pipeline 
X-PipeUser: alxander 
X-PipeHub: nyc.pipeline.com 
X-PipeGCOS: (Alexander N. Bossy) 
X-Newsreader: The Pipeline v3.3.0 
References: > 
 
On Jan 09, 1996 23:03:20 in article <Re: Bela Kun>, 
(EvaB459762)' wrote: 
 
>In article >,  
>(Alexander N. Bossy) writes: 
> 
>>For example, the Austrian half of the 
>>empire got universal suffrage in 1905.  Hungary resisted until after the 
>>fall of the Dual Monarchy.  
> 
>Yes, this is very true but the interesting thing is that "they" (meaning 
>the government party) resisted universal suffrage not so much because of 
>the minorities but because of the Hungarians overwhelming sentiment for 
>independence. They were petrified that if the "lower classes," i.e., 
>Hungarian peasantry were allowed to vote the Party of Independence would 
>sweep the elections and that would be the end of the Dual Monarchy. And 
>they considered that a devastating blow to the integrity of the country. 
 
I haven't previously heard of fear of the lower classes as a specific
reason for rejecting universal suffrage (not that the upper classes really
liked comming under the political control of the lower classes anywhere in
the world).  However, given that about 3/5th of the Kingdom of Hungary's
population consisted in minorities, I'm certain that some of the
antagonisims that you are defining as class-based had to also be
ethnicity-based. 
 
>As for the Magyarization of Romaninas, it was a dismal failure. The number

>of Romanians, due to higher birthrates and also Romanization of some 
>Hungarians, was growing instead of diminishing. 
 
If only the Romanian chauvenists would remember that before pushing for
similar anti-Hungarian laws... 
 
Alexander

In article >,
   CHARLES VAMOSSY > wrote:
 (M.Williams2) wrote:
>>Hello, I am an English student of twenty one years old and I am very
>>interested in hearing about countries. I would like to know what it
>>is like to live in Rommania. ANd what the average person's life is
>>like. I would also like to know of the class structure,and anything
>>else that people could tell me about thank-you 
>
>
>Good luck to you in your research project!
>
>You will find that one of the things that make Romania a very special 
>country in Europe is that it is a criminal offense there to fly the Union 
>Jack or sing "God Save the Queen" in public.  The majority of the 
>Romanian Parliament, in their unfathomable wisdom, felt that such an act 
>would threaten Romania's very existence and passed the law which carries 
>a maximum sentence of 3 years in prison.  President Iliescu, having been 
>presented with an opportunity to sign or veto with the law, thought it 
>was an excellent law and signed it.
>
>By the way, it is not just the English Flag and National Anthem that is 
>banned in Romania, but also the United States', German, French, Italian, 
>Dutch, Belgian, Luxemburgian, Spanish, Portugese, etc.  As a matter of 
>fact, Romania bans ALL foreign countries flags and anthems.
>
>Perhaps, as part of your research efforts, you might contact some 
>Romanian government officials and have them explain to you why Romania 
>feels so threatened by foreign Flags and Anthems and post their replies 
>on the net.  I have tried unsuccessfully to get an answer from the 
>Romanian Embassy to the United States.  Maybe you will have more success.
>
>
>Charles Vamossy
>
>

I just came back from a trip to Romania and so just about any kind of flags on 
hotels, restaurants, etc. And I think Mr. Williams wanted information about 
the country and Valmossy's malicious answer might not have helped very much.
There is in England (London) a society called "Free Romanians" and they have 
a newspaper called the free Romanian. Maybe this helps: sorry I do not hvae 
exact adresses at hand.
By the way Valmossy's flame refers to an overreaction of Iliescu to the fact
that the Hungarian national Day had been celebrated with hymn and flags in 
*Romanian official buildings* leading to some national tentions in the 
country. And pointing the attention to this single aspect is like 
saying Hungary is the country which has brought the earthly rests of its
Nazi president Horty (Hitler's friend and ally) and burried them with honour,
after 1990. Does it mean that they go back to nazism ? I think not and I think 
one ought not break facts out of context maliciously, like Valmossy did. (My 
reference to Horty is just a counterexample, I do not imply it has deep 
political implications).

PM

Matej Lexa ) wrote:
> Jorma Kyppo > writes:
> >Czech is still hazitating whether to follow Slovakia and send
> >her application to join in EU. Perhaps Czech is afraid about
> >sudeet problem, Germany is too near and too big.
> Where did you read that? I mean that they are hesitating.

Just my personal opinion.. but I still have it.

> >But I doubt, that Slovakia would go alone in EU. No, they
> >certainly want Czechs there to support them..
> Do you really think this kind of decision making plays any role ? And I reall
y
> don't see any danger of Slovakia going there alone. I only wish you were
> right. The real question is, will Slovakia become member at the same time as
> Czech Rep., Poland and Hungary ?

My comment was 50% irony, but only 50%...
But I answer for your will Slovakia become member at the same time as
the mentioned neighbours? Yes.

And why?
1. There are no Slavic states in present EU, at first Poland and Czech
   want Slovakia to join in same time, just like Finland, Sweden and
   Denmark wanted Norway in EU. Naturally Slovakia might make same
   kind of solution like Norway, but that would be a big defeat
   for EU, not so big like Norway's was, but still..

2. If Czech joins in EU without Slovakia, Czech would be like
   a half man in big company. Just enough small to disappear
   in German's lap. Czech definitely don't want that the wall
   of EU goes through the former Czechoslovakia and cuts the
   connections to Slovakia.

3. If we assume, that EU is going to enlarge far more to east
   during the next 10 or 15 years. I mean, that also Ukrayna
   or even parts of the splitting Russia will later join in
   EU, then the question of Slovakia isn't so important
   from the Hungarian viewpoint.
   But if we assume, that the United States of Europe will
   be formed in near future, Russia gets stronger (that I strongly
   suspect) and the wall of "Fortress Europe" will be built
   after the next enlargement sometimes in 1999, then..
   Then, in that case, Hungary definitely wants Slovakia to
   join in EU in same time. Hungarian nationalists, who
   belive still today, that Slovakia should be part of Hungary
   certainly don't want that the wall between "east" and "west"
   would leave Slovakia and Hungarian speaking people over
   there on the other side.

4. Just take a map of Europe and draw the eastern borderline
   of EU added by Poland, Czech and Hungary (+ probably Slovenia
   and the Baltic states). How does it look like?
   Slovakia is like a finger from the east, like a thorn in the
   middle of Europe's heart. And it points straight towards Germany.
   If the power of Russia will raise again (that I strongly suspect)
   then EU *can't take the risk* that Slovakia would stay out of EU!

Present governement (Meciar's) is problem for the EU, because it is
out of their hands. If KDH or SD would be on power, these parties
would have very close connections (as they have now) with their
party brothers and sisters in Austria and Germany.
But HZDS is somehow out of control, a bit frightening. This explains
much of the large anti Slovakia campaign in the west.

Slovakia is today in very important position what comes to the
future of Europe and EU. On the top of the hill, and you know
how it is often when you are on the hill: quite strong winds..

> >I just got some latest information about economy in some
> >(former) eastern states. Slovakia is really doing well now
> >for she clearly the lowest foreign debt, 2.1 billion dollars.
> >Czech has 13 billion dollars and Hungary 33 billion dollars.
> >Poland 41.5.
> Where do the numbers come from ? (they sound reasonable, the last time I saw
> this kind of data it was CR - 9 , SR - 4)

Yes I do belive that. The numbers are changing all the time and
I've also got already some new numbers.
In my previous article I used as a source a small magazin I got
in my hands last week: CEMF News (Central European Missionary
Fellowship).

> Slovakia is also best in inflation rates, "only" 10.1%. Czech
> >is also doing pretty well with 11%. But it is good to notice,
> >that the development in Czech is now bad (last year 9.3%), but
> >in Slovakia good (year ago 13.8%).
> As far as I know this is nonsense, the numbers I saw were something like

> 		    1995             Dec
> CR                   9.2%             7.3%
> SR                   8.0%             6.5%

> out of my head. Not so sure about Slovak numbers, but definitely not more
> than 10%.

Jorma Kypp|
Laukaa
Finland

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1995/11/22
Version: 1.10
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

	Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.5  MOZAIK
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle
2.3  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is primarily
concerned with resources freely available netwide.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>.  It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived 
by HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;.

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
        <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). These groups
are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS') and they
are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;.

HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar
and hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>.

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname.  Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address.  For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY.  You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software.  For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

 <mailto:> is a group providing rapid communication
mainly among those living in the USA with interests in Hungarian
issues (it has been created to serve the community mainly at the
University of Maryland and in its vicinity). Subscribe by
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY . (Notice that this is distinct
from the older LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus
- 'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one!)

------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a Yahoo-like hierarchical
database of all Hungarian online content of the World. Currently it
has links in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>;. The Hungary-Online archive is
available from <http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard/hir.html>;.

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.jvnc.net/~kerekes/>;.

 There are some nice pictures from Hungary at 
<http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~HRISTOS/index.html>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source code for conversion between RTF (Rich
Text Format), character sets ISO 8859/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin 2)
and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically. The outbound format can't be RTF. Supported platforms:
VMS, MS-DOS, & possibly UNIX.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.

------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors are the responsibility of
Zoli - who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just
comments readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists).  The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

>Ha a kommonistaknak nehany ev alatt sikerult a "proletar internacionalizmus"
>ideologiajaval helyettesiteni az 1050 ev alatt kifejlodott nemzetfogalmat,
>akkor ott szerintem baki van.

Azt akarod bebizonyítani, hogy a háború utáni Magyarország önként és da-
lolva vált szovjet gyarmattá ? Nekem úgy rémlik, mintha a vesztes olda-
lon keveredtünk volna ki a világégésből egy megszálló hadsereggel a nya-
kunkban .. vagy azt akarod mondani, hogy önként és dalolva vettük át az új
ideológiát ?? Biztos összetévesztette az az  'istenadta nép' a MKP-t a
kis-
gazdapárttal, azért nyerte meg az utóbbi -abszolút többséggel- az első,
háború utáni választást....

>>Akkor nem jo a parhuzam, mert a PRI mexikoi part volt, legfeljebb nem tel-
>
>Na es? A hatalom, az hatalom, barkie is. Lehet vele "jol" banni, mint
>ahogy a Spanyol kiraly, Janos Karoly (avagy Juan Carlos) tette, vagy lehet vel
e
>visszaelni, mint a PRI.

Hagyjuk Mexikót, szerintem még nálam is kevesebbet tudsz róla. :) :)
Ugy írsz a PRI-ről, mintha az az első pillanattól fogva olyan lenne, mint
az utóbbi években. Holott ez nem igaz. Annak a társadalmi fejlődésnek,
amely oda vezetett, hogy Mexikót ma be lehetett venni egy közös amerikai
gazdasági régióba, felbecsülhetetlen szerepe volt a PRI-nek. Hát istenem,
mára már őket is kinőtte a társadalom, és túl is lép rajtuk.

>Melyik szazadtol szamitod akkor a "nemzetfogalom" letezeset?

Irtam pedig volt. István előtt nem létezett magyar nemzet, csak törzsszö-
vetség, amely békében kifejezetten laza dolog volt. Erre utal az, hogy
egyes
törzsek teljesen külön jártak kalandozni.

> Ha Hunyadi Janos "nemzetbarat" lehetett, mert tultekintett a sajat kis
>erdekein,

Nana... nem volt azért ez egészen úgy ám. H.J. csóró kisnemesből
emelkedett
az ország leggazdagabb klánjának élére *húsz év leforgása alatt*. Hatalmas
birtokokat harácsolt össze, jól nősült, nagyon is odafigyelt a "saját kis
érdekeire". Véletlenül ezek egybevágtak az ország érdekeivel. Jó katona
volt, az országnak szüksége volt ilyenekre, ezen a vonalon nyomult. De
tény-
leg párját ritkítja, hogy a Hunyadi család - gyakorlatilag a semmiből-
mire jutott. Csoda, hogy a sok szerezni-szerezni-szerezni mellett ju-
tott ideje a katonáskodásra. (amire egyébként a tisztsége miatt kötelez-
ve is volt)

>akkor Szapolyai vagy a ligak szerintem "nemzetellenesen" viselkedtek,
>mivel a sajat kis onos erdekeikre figyeltek elsosorban.

Itt tévedésben vagy: a nemesség volt a nemzet. Király vagy megfelelő
örökös hiányában joguk volt "a sajat kis onos erdekeikre" figyelni. Több
versenyző esetén ők  döntöttek, hogy ki legyen a király, hozzájárulásuk
nélkül nem lehetett koronázni. Törvényesen volt így.

>Bar meghatarozasod szerint I. Istvan "nemzetellenes" (idegen ideologia
>meghonositasa idegen katonakkal) megis "nemzetbaratnak" tekintheto.

Lényegtelen hogy csinálta, ő csinált nemzetet a törszekből.

>En inkabb abban latom egy politikai ero "nemzetidegen"-seget, hogy mennyire
>kapaszkodik a hatalomhoz. Ha szabad es tiszta valasztasok soran jutottak
>hatalomra, es szabad es tiszta valasztasokkal le lehet oket
>valtani, es le is mondanak a hatalomrol, akkor szerintem nem tekinthetok
>"nemzetidegennek". Amennyiben nem adjak at a hatalmat, akkor mar lehet,
>"nemzetidegennek"  tekinteni (pl. kommunistak)

Szerintem nincs igazad, mert fü alatt a demokrácia hiányához kötöd a nem-
zetidegenség fogalmát, pedig nincs így. Autokratizmus is lehet nemzetba-
rát. Kádár politikája sokkal inkább nemzetellenes volt, mint Ceausescu po-
litikája, holott a demokrácia skálán (vicces két diktátort ezen mérni) Ká-
dár jobb volt. 

Tamás

>I have a few Hungarian friends.  One has written to me about her niece who is
>in her mid-20's who would like to come to an english  speaking country to lear
n
>the language better and to see the culture.  In exchange, she can help in a
house and take care of children.  I doubt that she can get a temporary work
>visa and the Au Pair program does not recognize Eastern European countries so
>she would have to do this probably on a visitors visa.
>    Similarly, my friends' brother-in-law is desperate to come perhaps to the
>same town.  In exchange, he can cook, and do handyman work and build small
structures or carpentry. I don't know where else to look to help these
very kind, tolerant, and reliable individuals.
 
Allison D Morrison           
West Lafayette Indiana USA   If I can operate a PC, anyone can
(317)497-2761

Az egyik baratom azt allitja hogy a forint konvertibilis januartol, avagy
mindenki annyi dollart vehet otthon amennyit csak akar. Van ennek az alli-
tasnak valami alapja? Minden segito felvilagositast elore koszonok szepen.

Attila

In article >,  sa
ys:
>
>>I have a few Hungarian friends.  One has written to me about her niece who is
>>in her mid-20's who would like to come to an english  speaking country to lea
rn
>>the language better and to see the culture.  In exchange, she can help in a
>house and take care of children.  I doubt that she can get a temporary work
>>visa and the Au Pair program does not recognize Eastern European countries so
>>she would have to do this probably on a visitors visa.
>>    Similarly, my friends' brother-in-law is desperate to come perhaps to the
>>same town.  In exchange, he can cook, and do handyman work and build small
>structures or carpentry. I don't know where else to look to help these
>very kind, tolerant, and reliable individuals.

I am also interested in any information I can get about people or
organizations in Britain that might be able to help Hungarians in
various parts of Europe to visit Britain. Any information, contact 
addresses, phone numbers, etc, as well as advice and pointers, are 
welcome. For instance, I used to be a member of the British-Hungarian 
Society a few years ago but have allowed my membership to lapse and 
have lost all contact with that organization and its members. 

Several Hungarians have recently contacted me for such information.
All help much appreciated.

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
*********** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list ***********

VAN VALAKI ITT MAKOROL?????????????//
iLL AKI HASZNALJA EZT A NEWSGROUPPOT ES MAKOROL VAN????????????///

My wife recommends the restaurant of the Molnar Panzio (on the other side of  
Gellert Hill from the Danube): sophisticated, gourmet food building on 
Hungarian traditions without the excesses and the heaviness of the run-of-the-
mill fare.  We had friends staying there and they found the accommodation 
very good also.

Something to avoid is the Matyas Pince on the Pest side of Elizabeth Bridge: 
brash tourist place with Gypsy music and kitsch galore.  If you are after 
something like that then walk another block away from the Danube and go to the 
Apostolok where the food is good (although just as pricey) and there is a 
Gypsy band and outlandish but still decent decor.

In general, look for a place where the menu card is different from the 
standard list of half dozen Hungarian restaurant meals.  Believe me: after two
days you will know that list by heart.

George Antony

freezeout ) wrote:
: Does anyone out there have or know where I can get  maps of the
: German, Austrian, Ottoman and Russian empires in electronic format
: (gif, bmp, jpg)? Web sites, ftp sites--anything will be appreciated.

: Thanks!

: 

You might want to try looking at this site:
Federation of East European Family History Societies
at
http://dcn.davis.ca.us/~feefhs/masteri.html


Here's what you'll find there:

FEEFHS East European Map Room IndexPage (9K) This map room has been 
increased to a full set of 44 maps of
central and eastern Europe. All but one of them come from the same 1882 
atlas. They represent about 8.3 MB of file
space. A Background" file describes the technical details of the scans. 
An "Infrequently Asked Questions" file deals with
solutions to a printing problem. The map directory is organized as follows:

      Austro-Hungarian Empire Map Index (8 maps - 1.33 MB)

      Balkans Map Index - (7 maps - 1.23 MB)

      German Empire - East Map Index (7 maps - 1.29 MB)

      German Empire - West Map Index (9 maps - 1.83 MB)

      Russian Empire Map Index (11 maps - 2.2 MB)

      Scandinavia (1 map of Finland - .17MB)



* * * * *
Max

> 
> In article >, peter sigsgaard > writes:
> >In Denich "Jeg elsker dig"
> 
>    in swedish:  Jag avskyr dig ----HA-HA VERY FUNNY!!! NOT!
> >
> 
For those of you who don't speak swedish "Jag avskyr dig" means "I hate or
detest you...Quite Rude.

	"Jag aelskar dig" is Swedish for "I love you"...pronounced
(Yahg elskar day)...
	In Lao "I huk chow"
	In German "Ich liebe dich"
	In French "Je t'aime" or "Je t'adore"
I'll stop there before everyone thinks me to be pedantic!